This is part one of a LONG over 2
month conversation I had with a believer on Facebook. I finally stopped responding. This guy’s arguments are really worse than
the ones that I encountered on my debate blog.
I didn’t know this when I began the exchange, but this dude is actually
the pastor of a local church. He wanted
to debate me at his church. I
declined. He said he wanted to be able
to address the concerns and questions his congregation had. Didn’t seem to be my problem, and from what I
could see, his answers would leave anyone with any intelligence running to
atheism. Anyway, this is LONG. I had to break it into two parts. This is the short part. The next is really long.
If any of you reading this have the stomach to get through the whole thing, you can let me know how this debate went in a comment.
If any of you reading this have the stomach to get through the whole thing, you can let me know how this debate went in a comment.
·
February 14
o
Why do you believe
that God does not exist?
·
February 15
o
I see no reason to
think that a god does exist. There is no evidence of anything supernatural. Why
do you believe in something that cannot be shown to exist?
·
February 17
o
During my sophomore
year at Indiana State (2002) I was having a great time good friends, great
parties. Then one day I started reading a Bible, which is a long story, and it
described my life exactly. I was trying to fulfill every desire I had, but I
was never satisfied. Then something happened that I can't really describe, it
was like a light switch was turned on in my head. I felt this overwhelming
since of love from God. I had always doubted, but for a few days after that God
was real to me I couldn't deny it. I understand that not everyone has these
experiences and not everyone believes those who do. I just wish people didn't
treat my like I'm crazy for it. Faith is not insane, have you ever studied the
works of Alfred Russel Wallace, Gottried Leibniz, Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle,
Louis Pasteur, or some of the great theologians like Augustine, Luther, or
Calvin?
·
February 17
o
I don't think you're
crazy; I think you hold crazy beliefs for irrational reasons. Faith is
certainly delusion.
I find it interesting you tell a personal story, instead of disputing my assertment that you believe in something that cannot be shown to exist. Perhaps I set you up for that.
You should remember that I was raised catholic. I went to 12 years of catholic schools. I'm well versed in christian theology and I've read the bible several times. That's why I'm an atheist.
Do you think your personal story gives you a rational reason for belief? Do you think your personal story gives ANYONE ELSE a rational reason for belief?
I find it interesting you tell a personal story, instead of disputing my assertment that you believe in something that cannot be shown to exist. Perhaps I set you up for that.
You should remember that I was raised catholic. I went to 12 years of catholic schools. I'm well versed in christian theology and I've read the bible several times. That's why I'm an atheist.
Do you think your personal story gives you a rational reason for belief? Do you think your personal story gives ANYONE ELSE a rational reason for belief?
·
February 17
o
Going to Catholic
school does not show you God, and reading the Bible can but does not
necessarily show you God. You asked me why I believe and I shared my
experience. Is the personal experiences of billions of people not considered
evidence?
I believe that everything came from something, and that the universe and life is not just the result of random chance. Please explain to me what is crazy about that. Maybe your interpretations of the Bible seem crazy to you, but the beliefs are not crazy.
I believe that everything came from something, and that the universe and life is not just the result of random chance. Please explain to me what is crazy about that. Maybe your interpretations of the Bible seem crazy to you, but the beliefs are not crazy.
·
February 18
o
Indeed, a school does
not "show god", but you asked if I had ever studied, and I wanted to
give you an explanation of what when and where.
If every personal experience yielded the same result, then I'd say you'd have the beginnings of an argument. However, you have already admitted that not everyone who has such an experience shares the same result. it would seem your experience is not unusual, but your interpretation of it may be.
It is crazy to assume the natural universe has a supernatural cause. It is crazy, because a supernatural cause is nonsense. You cannot show anything supernatural exists, and therefore, it is crazy to think a supernatural cause is real.
The only rational interpretation of the bible is that it is not a rational book. That interpretation seems reasonable to me. Beliefs based on an irrational source are, therefore, delusional.
You didn't answer my questions. Do you think your personal story gives you a rational reason for belief? Do you think your personal story gives ANYONE ELSE a rational reason for belief?
If every personal experience yielded the same result, then I'd say you'd have the beginnings of an argument. However, you have already admitted that not everyone who has such an experience shares the same result. it would seem your experience is not unusual, but your interpretation of it may be.
It is crazy to assume the natural universe has a supernatural cause. It is crazy, because a supernatural cause is nonsense. You cannot show anything supernatural exists, and therefore, it is crazy to think a supernatural cause is real.
The only rational interpretation of the bible is that it is not a rational book. That interpretation seems reasonable to me. Beliefs based on an irrational source are, therefore, delusional.
You didn't answer my questions. Do you think your personal story gives you a rational reason for belief? Do you think your personal story gives ANYONE ELSE a rational reason for belief?
·
February 19
o
I didn't ask if you
had studied I asked if you had ever read the works of a few of the most
brilliant men who have ever lived. I do want to take a second and let you know
that I don't think your beliefs are crazy. I think mankind is growing more and
more skeptical so it's natural to not believe.
As far as my personal experiences are concerned it would irrational for me to continue to disbelieve something which I have experienced. But I do not think my experience should give someone else a reason to believe.
As far as my personal experiences are concerned it would irrational for me to continue to disbelieve something which I have experienced. But I do not think my experience should give someone else a reason to believe.
·
February 25
o
Have you seen the
video's where Richard Dawkins admits that their maybe an intelligent designer
(possibly aliens), and that his goal in life is to kill religion? I was going
to post the links, but I won't bother if you have already seen them.
·
February 27
o
If it's the one I
recall, the point Dawkins was trying to make was that IF there WAS an
intelligent designer for life on Earth, it would have had to have come to be
through a natural process, or evolution. I agree Dawkins was a bit clumsy, but
his point was that even If you could PROVE life on Earth was intelligently
designed, it would not in any way dis-prove evolution.
I think the goal of eradicating religion is a lofty goal, but an admirable one. Religion is brain poison. Faith is delusion. To rid the world of superstitious nonsense would be a great benefit, however unlikely.
I should say, however, it is not a goal of mine. I prefer to have more attainable goals. I prefer to keep the wall of separation of church and state strong and wide. Freedom is the distance between church and state. My goal is that when people speak of politics, there is no sign of religious mumbo-jumbo.
I think the goal of eradicating religion is a lofty goal, but an admirable one. Religion is brain poison. Faith is delusion. To rid the world of superstitious nonsense would be a great benefit, however unlikely.
I should say, however, it is not a goal of mine. I prefer to have more attainable goals. I prefer to keep the wall of separation of church and state strong and wide. Freedom is the distance between church and state. My goal is that when people speak of politics, there is no sign of religious mumbo-jumbo.
·
February 27
o
So you think we should
throw out the Deceleration of Independence because of all that religious
mumbo-jumbo?
·
February 27
o
is the declaration a
governing document?
o
did the original
version of the declaration contain a mention of a creator?
o
does the Constitution,
an actual governing document, make any reference to god(s), creators, or
religion, except to bar religious tests for office?
·
February 27
o
Yes the Declaration is
a governing document, without it we would still be a British colony. The original
version did not mention a creator, but it was added by either Jefferson, Adams,
or Franklin and was accepted by congress. And the constitution does make a
reference to religion. The First Amendment, and it says nothing about the
separation of church and state. It says, "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof."
·
February 28
o
Ooohhh, I'm sorry,
that is incorrect. The Declaration is NOT a governing document. It is not what
granted the colonies independence. Remember, the Declaration was written within
the first year or so of the Revolutionary War. The war raged on for a few more
years before it finally came to a close, with the Treaty of Paris, which IS a
governing document, as treaties are considered to be the "law of the
land."
To make this point, what would the significance of the Declaration have been if the colonies had LOST the Revolutionary War? Indeed, in the years immediatly following the war, the Declaration was mostly forgotten.
Please explain how you would practically implement the First Amendments WITHOUT a separation of church and state.
To illustrate this, imagine for a second that the First Amendment read instead, "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of healthcare, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Now, this is hypothetical, of course. But would this not create a wall of separation between state and hospital? How would you uphold this Amendment without maintaining strict government neutrality on all things related to healthcare?
It is indeed the First Amendment that clearly separates the church from the state. How do you read it and miss its application so widely?
To make this point, what would the significance of the Declaration have been if the colonies had LOST the Revolutionary War? Indeed, in the years immediatly following the war, the Declaration was mostly forgotten.
Please explain how you would practically implement the First Amendments WITHOUT a separation of church and state.
To illustrate this, imagine for a second that the First Amendment read instead, "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of healthcare, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Now, this is hypothetical, of course. But would this not create a wall of separation between state and hospital? How would you uphold this Amendment without maintaining strict government neutrality on all things related to healthcare?
It is indeed the First Amendment that clearly separates the church from the state. How do you read it and miss its application so widely?
·
March 2
o
I apologize, I made
assertions about things which I have very little knowledge. I did notice that
you were a part of a non-religious student group on campus, and I was wondering
if you might be interested in hosting or partnering with a campus ministry to
host a debate. I recently watched a debate between Frank Turek and Christopher
Hitchens at VCU hosted by there SSA, and thought it would be a great idea to
have a similar one at ISU. Either way I would also love to get together with
you and some other members of the group for a discussion of these issues
primarily because we tend to loose our humanity through impersonal
communication like facebook. Let me know if your interested. Hope your having a
good week.
·
March 2
o
To be honest, I've not
really considered hosting a debate. If it were to happen, the earliest would be
in the fall semester. We're pretty booked right now. We're having a bake sale
fundraiser in a couple of weeks, followed immediately by a trip to Washington
DC for the Reason Rally, and then we are hosting a speaker for ISU's Human
Rights Day event. Spring is totally booked!!
Are you a member of a campus ministry group? If so, which one? Are you a student at ISU? If you really want to schedule something, get with the leadership of the campus ministry group you sponsor and make sure it is something they also want to sponsor. We'll talk dates and topics then.
If you want a discussion, you are free to post questions and comments on our facebook page. Please be aware that page is NOT the place for debate. The group's page is a safe place for non-theists to gather and communicate. My personal page is NOT a safe harbor, and I welcome debate.
I send out a newsletter for the group after each meeting. Send me your email if you would like to be included. Our meetings are open to the public, and I send the details of the coming meeting in the newsletter. I have a few bugs to work out before I send the next one, so it will most likely be Tuesday or Wednesday before I get it out.
Thanks,
Andrew Garber
President
The Fellowship of Non-Religious Students of ISU
https://www.facebook.com/groups/130958503617979/
Are you a member of a campus ministry group? If so, which one? Are you a student at ISU? If you really want to schedule something, get with the leadership of the campus ministry group you sponsor and make sure it is something they also want to sponsor. We'll talk dates and topics then.
If you want a discussion, you are free to post questions and comments on our facebook page. Please be aware that page is NOT the place for debate. The group's page is a safe place for non-theists to gather and communicate. My personal page is NOT a safe harbor, and I welcome debate.
I send out a newsletter for the group after each meeting. Send me your email if you would like to be included. Our meetings are open to the public, and I send the details of the coming meeting in the newsletter. I have a few bugs to work out before I send the next one, so it will most likely be Tuesday or Wednesday before I get it out.
Thanks,
Andrew Garber
President
The Fellowship of Non-Religious Students of ISU
https://www.facebook.com/groups/130958503617979/
o 
The Fellowship exists to provide support to non-religious students
at ISU and to aid in educating others. We look to provide a safe place for
those without religious beliefs to find a sense of communi...
You did very well and i am excited to read part II. I find it interesting that when i ask someone why they believe they almost always tell me a personal story--just like in your conversation. I always wondered what would someone tell me if i told them a personal story of why i do not believe? So i started to try that. Whenever i get asked why i do not believe i tell them a personal story that i make up and the answer i get back is always the same, "that is not evidence that god does not exist." Yet when i ask why they believe most of the time i get a personal story of how they know god exists because of the changes in their lives. Unfortunately, reason and logic are dismissed and if only they are applied to their own beliefs it would then become obvious that their beliefs are no different than the others that they criticize.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Neno. I'll have to try telling a personal story, but I'd be afraid I'd be playing into the "you must be angry at god" thing. Besides, I actually got this guy to AGREE his story was convincing to him, but ought not convince anyone else. At that point, it seemed to me he conceded the fact he had no evidence, only anecdote.
ReplyDeleteThere may be three parts to this. Like I said, this was really long.