tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-59824492346129527932023-11-15T13:08:10.474-05:00Andrew the Atheist's blogI'm an atheist. After years of trying to find a religion that suited me, I found no religion suits me perfectly. It's kinda like trying on a whole slew of straight-jackets trying to find one that's comfortable, only to finally realize the sweet beauty of streaking.
Now, I want to find more about non-belief. With little investigation I have found this is where I should have been all along. Now I feel compelled to do more. Because God isn't here, we are.Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-23743770160377474132013-02-28T19:34:00.000-05:002013-02-28T19:34:20.516-05:00The Bible on Slavery<br />
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This came up in a recent discussion I had with a couple of believers. They asserted the bible does not endorse slavery. I asked which bible they were reading. This is from my bible:<br />
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A few Bible verses about slavery:<br />
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Ex 21:2 “If thou buy an Hebrew servant,
six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.”<br />
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<o:p></o:p></div>
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Ex 21:20-21 “And if a
man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he
shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding,
if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.”<o:p></o:p></div>
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Lev 25:44-46 “Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which
thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall
ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover
of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye
buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land:
and they shall be your possession. And
ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit
them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your
brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with
rigour.”<br />
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1 Tim 6:1 “Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters
worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.”<o:p></o:p></div>
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Col 3:22 “Servants,
obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as
menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God.”<o:p></o:p></div>
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How does someone read these passages and not think the bible
endorses slavery? It DOES!! Nowhere in the bible is slavery
condemned. Why not a commandment? Where is the commandment that says, “Thou
shalt not own slaves”? It’s not there
because the bible LIKES slavery! If we
follow the bible, we not only own slaves, but regard ourselves as slaves to
god. How abhorrent!! How vile!!
Your god is a slave-owner?! Ew!<br />
<br />
None for me thanks. I, for one, am glad
this god is imaginary. How fortunate we
are to be the ones who control our morality, not this monster. How wonderful it is that all believers are so
much better than the book they call holy.<o:p></o:p></div>
Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-35456810858058113202013-02-13T23:02:00.002-05:002013-02-13T23:02:29.121-05:00The Temptation of Heaven<br />
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<span style="border: 0px; font-family: Times New Roman; font-style: inherit; line-height: 14px; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">Heaven, the greatest carrot and stick routine</span></div>
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<span style="border: 0px; font-family: Times New Roman; font-style: inherit; line-height: 14px; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">I was reading a muslim’s blog the other day.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>This particular blog was talking about how non-muslims seem to be fascinated by the 70 virgins in heaven thing.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>I must say that when the writer said that this is the first thing most non-muslims think of islam, I agreed.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>This seems to be true for me.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>The point of this particular blog was that the point of the virgins isn’t the virgins themselves, but that heaven is a reward for those who chose the right religion (or were lucky enough to have been born in it) and followed the dogma of the religion all their life.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>I would say that my problem with the virgins is not the virgins themselves, but the fact religion thinks we need a reward in order to do the right thing.</span></div>
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<br /><span style="border: 0px; font-family: Times New Roman; font-style: inherit; line-height: 14px; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">Let me start with this:<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>what IS the right thing to do?<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>How do we tell the right from wrong?<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>The question of right and wrong SHOULD keep us up at night.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>We should constantly be pondering our personal code of morals and ethics, looking for flaws and ways to correct those flaws.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>We need to be able to discuss what we find with those closest to us, to get other perspectives and weigh them.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>But this can only happen AFTER we accept that there are no objective moral standards, and that any moral standard we make can be wrong.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>If we think our morality is the best, greatest morality that has god’s stamp of approval, I imagine you’d have no reason to ever ask if an action is or is not right.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>And you’d have no reason to change it.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>And your morality would surly stagnate, and fail.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Humans are fallible, but we are the ones in control of our morality.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Give it over to an imaginary god, and we have lost before we have begun.</span></div>
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<br /><span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; line-height: 14px; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="border: 0px; font-family: Times New Roman; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">Of course religion is no place to find moral standards.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>If it were, we’d see all religions agreeing on what is right and what is wrong.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>And while simple layers like the Golden Rule do seem to make multiple appearances, how this plays out certainly varies from religion to religion.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Show me a religion that says “…and play nice with other religions, for they have as much evidence of their god(s) as you do”.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span></span></span></div>
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<br /><span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; line-height: 14px; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="border: 0px; font-family: Times New Roman; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">And why should we do the right thing instead of the wrong thing?<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Perhaps the wrong thing is easier, more profitable, or more enjoyable.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Why would anyone ever choose to do the right thing if the wrong thing could bring about a better result?<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Surely we can all agree that the right thing often is far more complicated that the wring thing.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Surely we have all been faced with a choice where the wrong thing would bring a more favorable outcome.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Why do you not do it?<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Never do I weigh the consequences that I may face in an afterlife when making this decision.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Yet I am pulled to do the right thing, because I know it is the right thing to do.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Is there any reward better than knowing you did your best?<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span></span></span></div>
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<br /><span style="border: 0px; font-family: Times New Roman; font-style: inherit; line-height: 14px; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">In a story I often read to my son at bedtime, a boy is faced with the problem of showing an empty pot to the emperor, when he knows all the other children will be presenting lovely flowers.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>His father says to him, “You did your best, and your best is good enough to present to the emperor.”<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>I love that line.</span></div>
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<span style="border: 0px; font-family: Times New Roman; font-style: inherit; line-height: 14px; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">Now don’t get me wrong.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>I like rewards.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>I have a Kroger card: I save my Coke caps; I used to save Camel cash before some asshat thought the free lighters were the reason I smoked.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>But the thing is I shop at Kroger because it’s close to my house.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>I like soda, and Coke is my favorite.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Nicotine is addictive.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>In other words, I’d do these things without the rewards.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>I ought to be able to do the right thing without one either.</span></div>
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<span style="border: 0px; font-family: Times New Roman; font-style: inherit; line-height: 14px; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">Finally, let’s talk about the nature of the reward.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>In heaven, or at least the muslim heaven described in the blog, you get all the pleasures of earth without any consequence.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>You can eat and never be full or gain weight.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>You can have sex with your 70 virgins and they will remain virgins.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>You can drink and never be drunk.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>You get the idea.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>You know, to me, this sounds more like hell than heaven.</span></div>
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<span style="border: 0px; font-family: Times New Roman; font-style: inherit; line-height: 14px; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">What would I ever do with 70 virgins?<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Like I’m dead so I have all the time in eternity to teach them all what to do?<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Why can’t heaven have one chick who knows how to do the dirty dance with me?<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>I find one person who has a clue is better then 100 giggling at each other.</span></div>
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<span style="border: 0px; font-family: Times New Roman; font-style: inherit; line-height: 14px; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">Look, after I’m dead, I don’t want to eat to enjoy the taste of food.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>I don’t want to have sex for pleasure.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>I don’t want to drink alcohol and get intoxicated.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>THAT’S WHAT LIFE IS FOR!!<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>If I didn’t do those things while I was alive, why would I think a good time to start is after I’m dead?<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>As if a virgin, on his/her deathbed ever thought, “Gee, I’m going to die and finally lose my virginity after I’m in heaven!”<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>I doubt it.</span></div>
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<br /><span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; line-height: 14px; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="border: 0px; font-family: Times New Roman; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">I can’t understand why we can’t enjoy a good pork chop today, while we are alive.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>I’m confused why we should not have sex now, while we can.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Why is alcohol banned in this life and not in the next?<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Why would I EVER want to drink alcohol and NOT get drunk?<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span></span></span></div>
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<br /><span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; line-height: 14px; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="border: 0px; font-family: Times New Roman; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">Religion tries to tempt me with promises of eternal pleasure once I’m dead if I follow the “rules” in life.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Like an eternal hand job.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>I guess I just know how to resist temptation.<span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span>Besides, I don’t need god to give me a hand job. I can do that myself just fine<span style="font-size: large;">.</span><span style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: large; font-style: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"> </span></span></span></div>
Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-65949023244628825602012-07-26T23:24:00.000-04:002012-07-26T23:24:01.584-04:00Blog Talk RadioI've begun an internet radio show called the Atheist Roundtable. I think I'm so damned full of answers I should take calls!! Actually, I wanted to try to branch out from the blog. This is great and all, but I wanted to try other media, and the internet allows me to do this for free. I've placed a widget on this blog. Just look at the right and find it. If you have any ideas or comments for the show, you can leave them here, or email the show at atheistroundtable@gmail.com. <br /><br />I'll still blog from time to time. If you like the show and the blog, and you are able, consider donating a buck or two. I'll use the donations to fund the full version of BlogTalkRadio, which allows better times and call screening. Oh, how I long for screening!<br /><br />Thanks to everyone who has shown me such support!!Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-41913913306157123162012-06-27T23:27:00.000-04:002012-06-27T23:27:14.164-04:00Facebook debate, Part IIIOkay, here it is. The last leg of the debate I had with Matt Larimer, pastor of the Rio Grande Baptist Church here in Terre Haute. Matt consistently refused to address my points. He argued from ignorance, emotion and authority. He couldn't hold a logical conclusion in a bucket. I eventually just stopped answering him. I've had better conversations with trolls.<br /><br />Enjoy.<br /><br /><br />
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_56" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">April 20<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">I'm going to be
completely honest with you. I have had countless discussions and debates with
atheists and you are by far the most arrogant and at the same time least
capable one I have ever spoken with. It would be better for your organization
and your cause for you to stop posting goofy video's, pictures, and comments
that only make you and the group look ridiculous.<br />
<br />
I have a ton of respect for atheists who just can't say they believe in
something they don't. I think it takes a lot of courage to stand up in a
community and tell people how you really feel. But you are laughably arrogant,
rude, disrespectful, and you seem to lack a basic grasp of your own world view.
I am not very smart but at least I know it. I don't run around acting like I'm
brilliant and just embarrassing myself. And I have heard and debated with
plenty of atheists who I truly felt were extremely intelligent.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_55" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">April 20<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">I could say the same
of you, and I have no idea what you've been posting, cause I don't care<br />
<br />
If you don't want to debate me, piss off. I've got plenty of asshats thinking
they have an argument for god. Take a number.<br />
<br />
Like I went looking for you in the first place...<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_54" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">April 20<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">You're right what I
said in that last post was extremely rude and arrogant. I would just really
love to sit down and have these discussions in a group. Did you say I could
come to your group meetings on Fridays? I will not cause a disturbance, and I
apologize again for the last post.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_53" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">April 20<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Our meetings are open
to the public. We'll be at Mogger's next Friday at 6:00pm.<br />
<br />
Keep in mind that my group is part educational, part support group. There are
members who are not as jaded against religion as I, and a few who have
criticized me for being too harsh on religion.<br />
<br />
In any event, there is never a lack of things to discuss at our meetings. And
there are often spirited debates WITHOUT believers there.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_52" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">April 20<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Oh, and BTW. There
will be people there who won't like the fact I've invited you. Keep that in
mind.<br />
<br />
There are also people in my group who have been seriously hurt or are being
seriously hurt by religion.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_51" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">April 20<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">I totally understand
that. I know religion has done a lot of damage over the years, and that is why
I get frustrated with myself when I say things that aren't respectful. I really
appreciate the invite.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_50" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 7<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">I noticed you changed
your idea's in the attic pitch to a non-profit group which will help fund
abortions. I was wondering, are you pro-choice because you believe a woman has
the right to make choices about her own body?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_49" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 7<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">sure<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_48" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 7<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Then are you for or
against prostitution?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_47" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 7<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">for<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_46" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 7<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">At least your
consistent.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Why don't you post
more material fighting for the rights of prostitutes?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo1; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_45" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 7<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">think I should?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_44" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 7<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">I would like to see
people's reactions. Do you think they will be as supportive?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_43" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 7<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">why shouldn't they be?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo1; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_42" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 7<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">I totally agree, if
your pro-choice you should support abortion and prostitution but I doubt many
people would be, but maybe I'm wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_41" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 7<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">you probably are<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo1; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_40" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 7<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">If abortion is legal
and prostitution is illegal I would think that logically you would be fighting
harder for the legalization of prostitution.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_39" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 7<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Abortion IS legal, and
yet the fight to preserve the availability of the medicine is never ending.
what with asshat laws like personhood bills getting passed all over the place,
it's enough to make any rational person vomit.<br />
<br />
On the other hand, prostitution is illegal, and yet the laws against it are
rarely enforced. the vice police have better things to do than chase down
people paying for blowjobs<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo1; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_38" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 7<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">At what point do you
think that a person becomes a person?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">I know it's a tough
question just message me when you have it all figured out.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_37" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 7<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">yawn. sure<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_36" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 7<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">No seriously, at what
point?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">I really would love to
know when you have decided that a person becomes a person.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Don't even answer it,
this whole discussion makes me want to vomit. 50 million dead babies because
you want to play God, and decide when people become people, and post stupid
analogies between chickens and eggs.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">At least be honest and
start posting some information fighting to make prostitution legal.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_35" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 7<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Or at least be honest
and post pictures of a fertilized chicken egg, with the little baby chicken in
it.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_34" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt, you're an idiot.<br />
<br />
The question of personhood is irrelevant. Consider this:<br />
<br />
I am a 36 year old male. There is no question I am a person. Certainly, you
would also argue that if I became ill, I would still be a person.<br />
<br />
What if I got a disease or illness that no longer allowed my body to sustain
life within me? what if the only way I could survive was to depend on another
person to use their body to sustain my life?<br />
<br />
What right do I have, as a person, to force by law another person, my mother
specifically, to use her body to sustain my own?<br />
<br />
NONE!!<br />
<br />
When my body can no longer sustain my life, I die. I have NO right to force, by
will, law or moral authority someone else to use their body to sustain my own,
for ANY length of time.<br />
<br />
Your argument make me want to vomit. 50 million women forced to bear children
they did not want. That equals 100 million lives destroyed because YOU think
you have some divine knowledge that no one else has. You think you have the
right to force your morality onto others. That's sick, and it is why I find
religion so destructive to society. The idea that we ought to use religion to
stop behavior found to be "sinful" is repugnant to me.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_33" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew, your argument
is ridiculous! A child could not survive on its own, realistically, until young
adulthood. So please tell me you're logically consistent and you support
murdering children if parents decide that they no longer want to sustain their
lives.<br />
<br />
Quit the whole "you make me want to vomit" act. It doesn't add any
credibility to your argument. I literally was going to vomit last night because
during our conversation I read some of the techniques used to perform
abortions. The vital organs are fully formed and the heart begins beating at
5-6 weeks, and this is exactly the time that the majority of abortions are
performed. The child is cut up and sucked through a tube.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_32" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Honestly this argument
sounds eerily similar to your "thought crime" argument. Your ideas
are born out of a contempt for religion rather than actually thinking about the
situations and there consequences.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Surely you are not
arguing that at birth the child can now survive on its own. So again at what
point do think a person becomes a person, or at what point do you think a fetus
can survive on its own? This is your argument right?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_31" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt, you must be
daft.<br />
<br />
This is not an argument about the needs of an infant for care from others. I
would argue that no one is an island, at any point in their lives, and we all
depend on one another at all times. This point of view further enrages me when
I see people like you who try to impose false morality on others through
legislation. That's offensive, and it makes me nauseous to contemplate. That's
not an act. That's a response to religions' infection on society.<br />
<br />
The argument is that if you support the mandatory commitment of one person's
body to sustain the life of another, then you must also support the idea of
forcing people to use their bodies to extend the life of others who are adults.
This is the natural, logical conclusion to you position.<br />
<br />
I think that is repulsive. It makes me want to vomit when I consider it. When I
further acknowledge that there are people like you who think this is the moral
thing to do, I am indeed filled with anger that you haven't thought about the
situation and its consequences.<br />
<br />
We can return to thought crime if you like. This is far more interesting to me.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_30" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">The question of when a
person becomes a person is irrelevant, until you acknowledge you would be
willing to force your mother to use her body to sustain your life after you
became so ill your biody could no longer sustain life on its own.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_29" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">I'm not sure what
you're talking about. How could my mother's body help sustain my life if I was
ill? Do you mean things like taking care of me, feeding me, and changing my
clothes? These things don't make me sick, they sound like things a loving
caring mother would do. I would definitely do all of those things for any of my
children if they became ill. I was trying to resist the urge to ask you this,
but you sound like you've been reading to much eugenics literature.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_28" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Let's try again.<br />
<br />
What if I got a disease or illness that no longer allowed my body to sustain
life within me?<br />
<br />
See, what I mean here is that my body cannot perform the functions on its own
required to sustain my life.<br />
<br />
What if the only way I could survive was to depend on another person to use
their body to sustain my life?<br />
<br />
What I mean here is that, hypothetically, my body must be connected in some
biological way so that my mother's body is now to perform the function that
mine can no longer perform.<br />
<br />
What right do I have, as a person, to force by law another person, my mother
specifically, to use her body to sustain my own?<br />
<br />
The question is NOT would you do this willingly. The question is what right do
you have to coerce, through legislation, any person to use their body in this
manner? If it were voluntary, there is no conflict. It would indeed be
wonderfully nice to do. However, that is not the point. By what right do you
force a person (that's a person however you'd like to define one) to use their
body to sustain the life of another person ( that's another person define
however you;d like)?<br />
<br />
Your silly personhood question is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. There is NO
circumstance under which it is morally permissible to use legislation to coerce
someone to do this. Period.<br />
<br />
This has nothing to do with eugenics. You would be daft to think it did.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_27" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Okay I understand now,
you don't think a woman's choice to create another person should translate into
any responsibility to take care of that person. And I don't understand why the
biological connection is so important to you. An infant is just as dependent on
it's mother for care before and after the cord is cut. But I'm assuming that
you feel a mother is responsible for the well being of the child as soon as it
is born correct? Or do you think mothers should have the right to abandon their
children if they no longer want to care for them?<br />
<br />
And this argument has everything to do with eugenics, and you would be daft to
think it doesn't. You don't think anyone should be responsible for another
person if that person can not take care of themselves. That is the logical
outcome of your argument. And it's exactly what leads to the termination of the
elderly, mentally handicapped, and the unborn.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo1; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_26" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">No.<br />
<br />
NO.<br />
<br />
no.<br />
<br />
NO.<br />
<br />
Let's try again.<br />
<br />
What if I got a disease or illness that no longer allowed my body to sustain
life within me?<br />
<br />
See, what I mean here is that my body cannot perform the functions on its own
required to sustain my life.<br />
<br />
What if the only way I could survive was to depend on another person to use
their body to sustain my life?<br />
<br />
What I mean here is that, hypothetically, my body must be connected in some
biological way so that my mother's body is now to perform the function that
mine can no longer perform.<br />
<br />
THIS SCENARIO INVOLVES THE LEGAL COERCION OF ONE PERSON TO USE THEIR BODY TO
SUSTAIN THE LIFE OF ANOTHER PERSON.<br />
<br />
What right do I have, as a person, to force by law another person, my mother
specifically, to use her body to sustain my own?<br />
<br />
The question is NOT would you do this willingly. The question is what right do
you have to coerce, through legislation, any person to use their body in this
manner? If it were voluntary, there is no conflict. It would indeed be
wonderfully nice to do. However, that is not the point. By what right do you
force a person (that's a person however you'd like to define one) to use their
body to sustain the life of another person ( that's another person define
however you;d like)?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_25" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">This is NOT a question
of responsibility. This is a question of legal coercion.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo1; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_24" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Okay I think I get it
now. No one should be legally coerced into sustaining the life of another
person. Therefore it is okay to cut that person into pieces, suck them up
through a hose, and throw them in the trash. Your position now makes perfect
sense.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">How does that not make
you sick. They cut the baby up, suck it out through a hose, and throw it in the
trash.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_23" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">they do the same to
cancer<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo1; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_22" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">You are really cold
hearted man, and you think religion makes people do crazy things.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo1; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_21" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div style="background: white; border: solid #E9E9E9 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-element: para-border-div; padding: 0in 0in 0in 0in;">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">you still haven't
defended the position to justify coercing people to use their bodies to prolong
the life of others<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">You really are a
simple man, with no understainding of how morals, ethics and civility work<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_20" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 10.5pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: -11.25pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l0 level2 lfo2; tab-stops: list 1.0in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Yeah I do. It is
moral, ethical, and civil not to cut people up into little pieces. What about
that do you not understand.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 10.5pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: -11.25pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l0 level2 lfo2; tab-stops: list 1.0in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">I'm not coercing
anyone. A man and woman make a choice to create a life it is therefore their
responsibility to care for that life. This doesn't seem that difficult of a
concept.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_19" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 10.5pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: -11.25pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l0 level2 lfo2; tab-stops: list 1.0in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Defend the position to
justify coercing people to use their bodies to prolong the life of others<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background: white; border: solid #E9E9E9 1.0pt; margin-left: -29.25pt; margin-right: 0in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-element: para-border-div; padding: 0in 0in 0in 0in;">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_18" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div style="background: white; border: solid #E9E9E9 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-element: para-border-div; padding: 0in 0in 0in 0in;">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 10.5pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: -11.25pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l0 level2 lfo2; tab-stops: list 1.0in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">I'm not coercing anyone.
A man and woman make a choice to create a life it is therefore their
responsibility to care for that life. This doesn't seem that difficult of a
concept.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_17" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 10.5pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: -11.25pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l0 level2 lfo2; tab-stops: list 1.0in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Oh, you think abortion
should be legal, and only object on moral grounds?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_16" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div style="background: white; border: solid #E9E9E9 1.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-element: para-border-div; padding: 0in 0in 0in 0in;">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">If you only object on
moral grounds, then FINE!!<br />
<br />
You do that, and allow others to make moral choice ON THEIR OWN<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background: white; border: solid #E9E9E9 1.0pt; margin-left: -29.25pt; margin-right: 0in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-element: para-border-div; padding: 0in 0in 0in 0in;">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_15" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">pass one law that
restricts or prohibits abortion and....<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 10.5pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: -11.25pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l0 level2 lfo2; tab-stops: list 1.0in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Defend the position to
justify coercing people to use their bodies to prolong the life of others<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_14" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 8<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">When a person uses
their body to create a life they should be legally obligated to care for that
life. There shouldn't be any laws concerning abortion. The child is a person,
it's simply murder man.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 10.5pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: -11.25pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l0 level2 lfo2; tab-stops: list 1.0in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">When the child is born
are the parents obligated to care for it?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">If they left it in the
car when they got home they would be prosecuted for negligent homicide. What
difference does the umbilical cord make?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_13" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 9<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Defend the position to
justify coercing people to use their bodies to prolong the life of others<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background: white; border: solid #E9E9E9 1.0pt; margin-left: -29.25pt; margin-right: 0in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-element: para-border-div; padding: 0in 0in 0in 0in;">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_12" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 9<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">So you think your
mother ought to be forced to use her body to save your life if your body was no
longer able to sustain it's own?<br />
<br />
"When a person uses their body to create a life they should be legally
obligated to care for that life."<br />
<br />
Until when? Until birth? Death? High school?<br />
<br />
"What difference does the umbilical cord make?"<br />
<br />
That's MY point.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_11" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 9<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">We already have laws
which state the period of time in which a parent is obligated to car for a
child, I believe in Indiana it's until they're 18 years old. Do you disagree
with these laws?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_10" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 9<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Yes, exactly. These
laws are arbitrary, no?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_9" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 9<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">You don't think there
is any reason why parents should be obligated to take care of their children?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_8" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 9<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">are these reasons
arbitrary?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_7" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 10<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">No the reasons aren't
arbitrary. If a parent neglects their child, and as a result the child dies or
experiences trauma there should be consequences.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_6" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 10<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">sure. consequences.
fine.<br />
<br />
What does that have to do with the question? Do you understand what
"arbitrary" means?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_5" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">May 10<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;"> </span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">The reasons for the laws aren't arbitrary.
They aren't random or based on personal whims. They are based on damage that
will occur if the laws aren't followed, and therefore there must be a defined
punishment if the laws are broken. What do you think arbitrary means? Are you
suggesting that we shouldn't punish parents who neglect their children?<br /><br /><br /><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<br /></div>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-14403151830296495632012-06-21T23:19:00.000-04:002012-06-21T23:19:12.938-04:00Facebook Debate, part 2Okay, get ready for round 2. <br />
<br />
At the end of this section, Matt convinced himself that he won the "thought crime" argument. Sorry. It's ALL the way at the end. This gave Matt a bit of a boost that you'll see in Round 3, if you have the stomach to read it.<br />
<br />
Truth told, I did screw up. I reverted to calling him daft when I shouldn't have. I was getting frustrated and I just lost it. That and finals were upon me and I really didn't want to respond to all his drivel. In any event, for your reading pleasure....<br />
<br />
<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 10<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Hey man, I saw you updated your profile and added some questions you'd had about God. I was wondering if you've had any of them answered? If not I'd love to do my best, and you could let me know what you think.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 10<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I haven't edited the "About me" section of the info tab in years. Feel free to address any of the questions you find there. The problem of evil is a particular favorite of mine.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 10<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>For me the problem of evil really depends upon whether there would be more good in a universe where there is no evil, or in a universe where some evil is permitted. I think there is far more good in a universe where free beings are given the ability to love and therefore also given the ability to not love. Which leads to the analogy of heat and cold, there is really no such thing as cold just an absence of heat. And I know that the story is often falsely attributed to Albert Einstein, but that doesn't make the truth of it any less potent. There is really no such thing as evil just an absence of good.<br />
<br />
So that leaves me with a God who is all good. He creates a universe and beings within the universe made in his image with the ability to choose, create, think, reason, and love. The story of Adam and Eve really relates to the fact that at some point in everyone's life they decide that they know what's best and choose to not trust God. God cannot force us to love him because that would negate free-will and love itself. So instead he chooses to come to earth and in the fullness of time give his life for his creation to draw them back to him and make all things new. I admit that I have struggled with doubt over the years, but I have never struggled with the reality that the gospel is the greatest story ever told.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 10<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Don't get me wrong there is great "evil" in the world, which is ultimately an extreme lack of conscience and extreme lack of goodness.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 10<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Are you responding to the problem of evil? It sounds like you are arguing for the existence of free will and its implications. That's not what the problem of evil is about. Free will hardly addresses the problem of evil, and I don't think I ever made the argument that free will does not exist, though it is my position.<br />
<br />
Here's the problem of evil:<br />
Is god able and/or willing to abolish evil? If he is able and not willing, he is malevolent. If he is willing and not able, he is impotent. If he is neither able nor willing, why call him god?<br />
<br />
Try again.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 10<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>The problem of evil only exists because free will exists. God is able but not willing and is still good because a universe with no evil is not as good as a universe where some evil is permitted.<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Without choice love is not possible. With choice evil is possible.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 10<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Ah, I see. You want a malevolent god who is still all good. You think a slightly dirty table is cleaner than a clean table. Interesting.<br />
<br />
You are saying that good isn't good without a little evil. That's insane. Is this so with any other set of opposites? Is white whiter when held against black? No, it may appear so only because of an optical illusion. It seems you are being fooled by a similar illusion.<br />
<br />
Now, for the time being, I'd like to move away from the question of the existence of free will. For the present argument, I'll grant that it does. Keep in mind however, I'll eventually challenge this position, as I think free will itself is an illusion.<br />
<br />
You just mentioned choice and love before I finished this. Love is not a choice. Do you chose who you love? Have you control over those you find attractive? When you chose to find Bill Nye sexy and also choose to find Angelina Jolie unsexy, then you can say love is a choice.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 10<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Yes, you absolutely choose who you love. Romantic love is often based on attraction, but love itself is actually the choice to understand someone else's needs and put them above your own. The is why Christians are called to love everyone, including their enemies. We are called to understand other people and put their needs above our own.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 12<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Oh, fine. I'll also concede for now that love is a choice. Again, I think this is hogwash, but I want you to actually address the problem of evil instead of dancing around it. I just want to say that I disagree, but I'll concede for now for the sake of this argument. We'll have to come back to the choice of love AND free will later. This is going to take a LONG time......<br />
<br />
Now, you were saying that god is able but not willing to abolish evil. You contend this does not make god malevolent. Further, you assert that good gets better with a little evil. Seriously, does any of this even sound rational when it comes back at you?<br />
<br />
A little evil.<br />
<br />
You must have a very high tolerance for evil. You must think that we need a holocaust every once in a while so we can all thank god for the good he does. A few million starving children ought to show us just how sweet god is. Please. A little evil, indeed.<br />
<br />
If your god has a plan, and if everything happens according to his plan, and if your god has the ability to affect the affairs of humans, he is responsible for the horrors humanity witnesses.<br />
<br />
Fortunately, god is imaginary, so there are no monsters lurking trying to harm us.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 13<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>The only way God could have created a world without evil, would have been to create beings without choice. He could have created a bunch of robots that just stood around and sang praises to him 24/7, but in that world love would not exist. He can't make people love him, that's the tragedy and the beauty of this world. And about those starving children, the problem isn't God the problem is us. The people in the US have more than enough money and food to feed the world 10 times over, but we just don't do it. I will take it another step further, the people in church in the US have more than enough money and food to feed the world 10 times over, and throughout the Bible God constantly commands the people to feed the hungry, and we still don't do it. The problem is not God, the problem is us.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 13<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I know that I am doing a poor job of conveying these ideas. Have you read any of C.S. Lewis's non-fictional work? He was an atheist who could not understand how a good God could exist with so much evil in the world. But through his friendships with J.R.R Tolkien and G.K. Chesterton and the writings of George MacDonald he saw how joy is not possible without sorrow, and love is not possible without choice.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 13<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>"The only way God could have created a world without evil, would have been to create beings without choice"<br />
<br />
No. Wrong. First, it wouldn't matter if neither you nor I could think of any way that god could have made the world so that choice existed and evil did not. You believe god knows everything, right? Therefore, god would know exactly how to make a world without evil and with choice. But just to drive the stake into your silly argument, consider this:<br />
<br />
Let's say the only evil in the world is starvation. Let's say that the choices are: feed people meat and grains and vegetables, feed people only grains and vegetables, feed people meat and grains, or feed people meat and vegetables. Look at all these choices. Starvation solved and the choices are endless. If I can do that with one problem of evil, what stops your god from doing the same for all evil?<br />
<br />
The problem does not go away when you try to shift the blame from god to man. The problems only compound for god.<br />
<br />
If your god has a plan, and if nothing happens outside his plan, then all evil that happens, large and small, your fault, my fault, Hitler's fault, are all god's responsibility. He made the plan which we execute. He is the ultimate evil, for no evil does not come from him.<br />
<br />
Again, this is why it is good news, the atheist's gospel, that god is imaginary. There is no plan, no divine course that we must stay. God isn't here; we are.<br />
<br />
I've read CS Lewis, though it has been years. You keep asking me if I'm familiar with christian doctrine and apologetics. I'm a master. Before my apostasy, I was a devout student of christian lore and dogma. I wager I know the bible better than you. This education was one of the first steps I took on my journey of apostasy. Want to know what book I recommend most to people who think they might want to de-convert from christianity? It's the bible.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 14<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>It's not a silly little argument. It's a topic that the most brilliant men throughout all of history have wrestled with. It seems really arrogant for you to think that you are "a master" and so much wiser than them. I'm not saying you have to believe what they believed, but a least have a little respect for the subject. I keep asking if your familiar with certain authors because they are much wiser than me and I cannot communicate their thoughts as clearly as they can. What books of Lewis's have you read, and did you know he was an atheist converted by Tolkein? Lets take your food analogy for example. God creates two people with free-will and gives them plenty of meat, grains, and vegetables. One of the two is stronger and decides to take the other persons food. What should God do?<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 14<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>The argument is silly, and it wouldn't matter who made it, it would still be silly.<br />
<br />
God should make more food. Simple, isn't it?<br />
<br />
I don't think you give yourself enough credit. I think you make their arguments just fine. Sure, it may not be as eloquent, but I get the point. It is not you that makes the argument fail. The argument fails all on its own.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 14<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Your big hang up with God seems to be the existence of sorrow, despair, calamity, and fear. But I would argue that you would not have any idea what joy was without sorrow, what hope was without despair, what peace was without calamity, and what love was without fear. For these things to exist free beings must be able to meet within a fixed space and that is exactly what this world is. You are angry about these things and that is what your response should be. I believe love is the greatest of all these, and love could not exist with out free-will and consequently the existence of the rest. But that is why the gospel is so great. There must be time for these things to exist, but there will also be a time when God will judge everyone for the decisions they have made. You cannot judge God based on what people do, even people who claim to do things in his name.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 14<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Nope. This is actually NOT my biggest hang up with god. It's just the first question I posed in my "about me" section and the one I thought you might want to address first. It's an easy one. And if you are a thoughtful person at all, you will have thought on this to some degree in your life.<br />
<br />
You are going to have to demonstrate how the non-existence of an opposite concept negates the remaining concept. Further you will have to demonstrate how, "For these things to exist free beings must be able to meet within a fixed space". How do they cease to exist in endless space? Is that what heaven is like?<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 14<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>"You cannot judge God based on what people do, even people who claim to do things in his name."<br />
<br />
I judge the character of god based on the description of his character by his believers and his apparent disregard for humanity. I judge him by the standards he gives, which by his own admission, are faulty.<br />
<br />
Why do I say god's standards are faulty? Imagine this:<br />
<br />
I'm the coach of a football team. I tell you that you are on the team if you tell me that my son is the greatest football player of all time. You've never seen him play, in fact, you've never met my son in real life. You've only heard about him from members of the team. They say he is indeed the greatest player ever. I go on to tell you that if you don't make the team, whether you try out or not, and don't think my son is the greatest player ever, the members of my team will rip you apart, limb from limb, and burn you alive.<br />
<br />
I judge that coach to be flipping nuts, crazy, scary, and stupid. I judge the team to be comprised of misinformed nutbags. How do you judge them?<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 14<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Okay I'm going to try and go through these one at a time.<br />
<br />
"You are going to have to demonstrate how the non-existence of an opposite concept negates the remaining concept."<br />
<br />
It doesn't negate the remaining concept, the existence of the opposite only puts the concept in perspective and ultimately makes it what it is.<br />
<br />
"How do they cease to exist in endless space? Is that what heaven is like?"<br />
<br />
In order for two beings to relate there must be some fixed medium through which they experience reality, process information, and communicate. This requires a fixed space. The bible depicts heaven as a fixed space in which "heaven" descends to earth and God makes a new earth, making new all that which is broken. How that will work I have no idea. I do know that it will be through Christ.<br />
<br />
"You've only heard about him from members of the team."<br />
<br />
I don't only believe in Christ because I heard about him from other Christians. I was reading the bible, and in the book of Ecclesiastes Solomon talks about the fact that you will never find satisfaction in life through attempting to fulfill your desires. He said that satisfaction in life can only be found in God. I can't explain it, but something supernatural happened as I read those words and God became completely real to me. My life has been completely different from that day.<br />
<br />
"I go on to tell you that if you don't make the team, whether you try out or not, and don't think my son is the greatest player ever, the members of my team will rip you apart, limb from limb, and burn you alive."<br />
<br />
Again, God cannot force you to love him. God did not send his son as some political game. God sent his son because mankind was ripping each other apart, and they needed an example of how to live life. And truthfully they needed a savior, so the coach actually gave his life for the team. That doesn't make sense to you because you don't think you need a savior, and until you realize that you do it will never make sense.<br />
<br />
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death."<br />
- Proverbs 14:12<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 14<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Right. I bombarded you. My bad. Let's move away from the opposites exist in time and space nonsense. You have no idea what you're trying to do there. I'll just comment on this:<br />
<br />
" The bible depicts heaven as a fixed space in which "heaven" descends to earth and God makes a new earth, making new all that which is broken. How that will work I have no idea. I do know that it will be through Christ."<br />
<br />
The bible thinks the earth is flat, that it is suspended on pillars, that there are seven crystal rings above us, that one of those rings is heaven. The reason you don't understand how this will happen is because you know more about the solar system than all of the authors of the bible put together and multiplied by 10.<br />
<br />
The next paragraph is what I want to rip into, as this IS my primary beef with Christianity.<br />
<br />
"Again, God cannot force you to love him."<br />
<br />
He sure does try, doesn't he? What else is this salvation game if not a twisted way of forcing people to love god. Imagine I have a gun to your head and say, "Love me or I'll kill you." Explain the free will in that love IF it is given. Explain how it is ethical to demand love in this way.<br />
<br />
"God did not send his son as some political game. God sent his son because mankind was ripping each other apart, and they needed an example of how to live life"<br />
<br />
Bullshit. Every believer I've ever know will tell me there are plenty of good people in the old testament. They point to Abraham, Solomon, and David. They talk about Moses and Joshua. People understood what a good life looked like without jesus. And if god sent jesus to stop people from ripping each other apart, he has failed worse than if he had never tried.<br />
<br />
"And truthfully they needed a savior, so the coach actually gave his life for the team."<br />
<br />
The only reason anyone needs saving is because of the threat made by the coach. Get rid of the coach, and no one needs saved. No one needs saved because no one is threatening people with torture.<br />
<br />
"That doesn't make sense to you because you don't think you need a savior, and until you realize that you do it will never make sense."<br />
<br />
The best savior is rational thinking. God is imaginary. His threats are as potent as the threat you will be attacked by ninja zombie rabbits. He is a figment used to distort reality and control people. The image of god is abhorrent, and when you realize that, you have saved yourself from delusion.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 15<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>" Explain how it is ethical to demand love in this way."<br />
<br />
That is exactly the point, he doesn't demand it he offers it. So you think God should just let people reject his love, and be unspeakably cruel to their fellow man with no consequences?<br />
<br />
" Every believer I've ever know will tell me there are plenty of good people in the old testament."<br />
<br />
God called Abraham out of the world to prepare a lineage for Christ. If you don't think society as a whole was infinitely more evil thousands of years ago you need to do some research on ancient cultures.<br />
<br />
"The only reason anyone needs saving is because of the threat made by the coach."<br />
<br />
Yes God does make threats like, "don't love your neighbor and you will be punished." How is that unethical?<br />
<br />
"He is a figment used to distort reality and control people."<br />
<br />
You are the one being controlled. You have made yourself God and you are a slave to your desires.<br />
<br />
"They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator."<br />
- Romans 1:25<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 15<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>"That is exactly the point, he doesn't demand it he offers it. So you think God should just let people reject his love, and be unspeakably cruel to their fellow man with no consequences?"<br />
<br />
No, he demands it. He demands it by threat of force. This is NOT like a "but-one-get-one-free" offer. This is a demand, made with a treat of force. You acknowledge this here:<br />
<br />
"Yes God does make threats like, "don't love your neighbor and you will be punished." How is that unethical?"<br />
<br />
God ought not need to make threats. This is what terrorists do. They give you demands and threaten torture if you do not comply. If you think this is moral or ethical behavior, you are a sociopath who ought to be locked away for life.<br />
<br />
You've alluded to the idea that without god, there would be no consequences for bad behavior. You forget already this conversation began with the assertion that all bad behavior is the consequence of god's malice.<br />
<br />
Are we going to start trading bible verses?<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 15<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. -- Genesis 38:7<br />
<br />
This is my favorite game.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 15<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>It really is a simple issue like you keep saying. What is greater good or evil. Good is obviously greater and in the end good will win. But the evil is not a product of God's malice it's a product of his love. He loved so much that he gave us the ability to love as well. It is not God's fault that people choose not to love him and each other. Why do you keep blaming God for peoples decisions? So do you believe punishment for crime is unethical and sociopathic?<br />
<br />
In a recent debate Sam Harris said that if someone could know all the consequences of the earthquake in Japan (i.e. increased nuclear safety) it might have actually been a good thing. If someone could know definitely that more lives would be saved than were lost because of this terrible tragedy then we would have to admit that it was actually a good thing. Do you agree? God is the only being who is omniscient and knows all of the outcomes of any possible action. You take bible verses and set yourself up as a judge over God when you have absolutely know idea what the total outcome of each action that God takes is. I have seen other scriptures that you quote as well and you frequently take them out of context. Quoting things that men did as though God demanded it.<br />
<br />
I understand your situation the world views a change of mind as weakness. But God sees a recognition of the truth and a change of heart as strength. I am praying that you have the courage to really search inside your heart, recognize the truth, and make the change.<br />
<br />
"But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed."<br />
<br />
Who do you think this verse is talking about?<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 16<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>The difference between us is that you think I'm stupid or crazy or both for my beliefs. And I know that you are an intelligent rational person who just has doubts about God.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 16<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Nope, again, you just can't be right. I think you are an intelligent person who holds stupid and crazy beliefs for bad reasons. But I don't think your crazy or stupid for holding those crazy, stupid beliefs. I think you have been indoctrinated into them, and have failed to analyze them in a critical light.<br />
<br />
Keep trying. You can't always be wrong, can you?<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 16<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>""But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed."<br />
<br />
Who do you think this verse is talking about?"<br />
<br />
It sounds like this is talking about a scapegoat. Do you think that a scapegoat is a method used by civilized, ethical people? Aren't scapegoats morally repugnant to you? Is it allowed in our human, flawed, relativistic justice system for people to take the punishments of others?<br />
<br />
Pretend I don't know what this verse is talking about. Explain why a scapegoat is morally acceptable to you.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 16<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>A scapegoat is a person or group which is singled out for blame, not a person who voluntarily takes the punishment for another. A scapegoat is not acceptable to me. You keep talking about how cruel God is for punishing people, but he has to because he is just. But because he is also merciful he voluntarily took our punishment. I know you understand this and I'm not sure why you pretend you don't or why you choose to only look at God as being evil.<br />
<br />
"I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes."<br />
- Romans 1:16<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 17<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>So if God should just make more food then you must also think that if God were good he would just appear and solve everyone's problems all the time?<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>There is plenty of food on this planet to feed everyone, God HAS made enough food, it is our fault for not sharing it.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 17<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>"A scapegoat is not acceptable to me."<br />
<br />
You think that a person's willing participation makes a scapegoat NOT a scapegoat? Are you serious? You think just because a person WANTS to be tortured for another's transgression, that makes it okay? NO. Imagine this:<br />
<br />
Hitler is captured. He stands trial and is sentenced to be executed. His mother, who loves him regardless of his evil, offers to suffer his punishment for him. Hitler wants his mother to take his punishment. His mother is ready and willing to do so. Would the execution of Hitler's mother be the moral, just thing to do? Fuck no. Hell fuck no, and fuck you if you think anyone should lay a finger on his mother. That's not justice. That IS christianity.<br />
<br />
"You keep talking about how cruel God is for punishing people, but he has to because he is just."<br />
<br />
No, wrong again. God is cruel for allowing the crimes to be committed in the first place. It was god's fault it happened, and the blame rest with him. An all-powerful, all-knowing deity would be able to stop any transgression and allow for your perception of free will. I've already illustrated this.<br />
<br />
" I'm not sure why you pretend you don't or why you choose to only look at God as being evil."<br />
<br />
You have already admitted your god is able, but unwilling to abolish evil. That makes him malevolent. I don't understand why you want so badly to find a way that makes a malevolent being a loving, caring god. YOU defined your god as evil. I only submitted to you the problem of evil.<br />
<br />
"So if God should just make more food then you must also think that if God were good he would just appear and solve everyone's problems all the time?"<br />
<br />
Yes. Duh. What is heaven supposed to be like? It would seem to me that god has already done this, according to your beliefs. He meanly withholds it to only those who are willing to ignore evidence and delude themselves with faith.<br />
<br />
"There is plenty of food on this planet to feed everyone, God HAS made enough food, it is our fault for not sharing it."<br />
<br />
This is insane. You cannot be serious. I'm taking a class right now at ISU regarding poverty, hunger, and the technology required to feed the people of earth. There's more here than just the amount of food. There's irrigation, fertilization, over harvesting, environmental issues, transportation, preservation, etc. etc. People are the ones who are making food more and more available to those who need it. People are the ones creating the technologies to store, maintain, preserve and distribute the meager resources we have. God watches with glee as thousands of children starve every day. Humans try to make that number 0. God isn't here; we are.<br />
<br />
Psalms 37:12-13 "The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth. The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming."<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 18<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>"Hitler wants his mother to take his punishment."<br />
<br />
You seem very concerned about Hitler receiving his punishment or justice being met, but what you don't understand is that in your system there is no justice. Hitler shot himself in a bunker and because there is no after life he was never punished for his crimes. Men and women everywhere commit terrible atrocities and are never caught, so according to you they die and cease to be, how is that just?<br />
<br />
"No, wrong again. God is cruel for allowing the crimes to be committed in the first place. It was god's fault it happened, and the blame rest with him. An all-powerful, all-knowing deity would be able to stop any transgression and allow for your perception of free will. I've already illustrated this."<br />
<br />
Here is the complete reason for this argument. You presume to know what an all-powerful, all-knowing being can and cannot do. In order to know that you would have to be an all-knowing and all-powerful being. You constantly set yourself up as a judge over God, as though you have the wisdom to do so.<br />
<br />
Also, you never did respond to the Sam Harris paragraph and how you can judge God when you don't know all of the consequences of any action.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 18<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Matt, you are talking in circles. At the very beginning of this, I said this:<br />
<br />
"No. Wrong. First, it wouldn't matter if neither you nor I could think of any way that god could have made the world so that choice existed and evil did not. You believe god knows everything, right? Therefore, god would know exactly how to make a world without evil and with choice. "<br />
<br />
Then, I began to show you how even without infinite knowledge, I can do better than god.<br />
<br />
I don't always agree with everything Sam Harris has to say. There is no pope of atheism. I didn't respond because it seemed incidental.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 18<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>" Therefore, god would know exactly how to make a world without evil and with choice."<br />
<br />
This clearly violates the law of non-contradiction. You cannot have a being that has choice but also does not have choice.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 18<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Are you daft?<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 18<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Tell me how a person can have choice and not have choice at the same time.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 18<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>This is the third time I have said this. You still don't get it. Are you daft?<br />
<br />
"Let's say the only evil in the world is starvation. Let's say that the choices are: feed people meat and grains and vegetables, feed people only grains and vegetables, feed people meat and grains, or feed people meat and vegetables. Look at all these choices. Starvation solved and the choices are endless. If I can do that with one problem of evil, what stops your god from doing the same for all evil?"<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 18<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I will pick up this discussion where I think we left off.<br />
<br />
" God watches with glee as thousands of children starve every day."<br />
<br />
Where do you get that God watches with glee? Yes it is evil that children starve, but God cannot suspend the laws of nature every time something bad is about to happen. Tell me if every person on this planet decided that we should put all the earth's resources towards ending starvation could we do it? I think the answer is yes so how is it still God's fault? You still want to blame God for mankind's choices.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 18<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>A year long facebook message conversation would take about an hour to have in person. Would you be willing to meet for lunch or coffee some time in the next couple weeks?<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 20<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Nope. What's the hurry? Do you think your elevator speech will do better than long rants on Facebook?<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 20<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>"...but God cannot suspend the laws of nature every time something bad is about to happen."<br />
<br />
Then he not only is unwilling, by your admission, to abolish evil, he is unable.<br />
<br />
"Tell me if every person on this planet decided that we should put all the earth's resources towards ending starvation could we do it? I think the answer is yes so how is it still God's fault?"<br />
<br />
Every person, vs. one god. All humanity's effort, vs the spoken word of the almighty. It is god's fault we have to make it happen. If god exists, we should not have to do so. The problem should not exist.<br />
<br />
This isn't outside your theology. This is heaven, is it not? This isn't something that your god has not already created. Do you think there is free will in heaven? Is there evil in heaven? How does your argument that free will begets evil and good stand in a realm like this? This coexistence of free will and the banishment of evil is already created by your god.<br />
<br />
There are more hols in your argument against the problem of evil than a colander, and yet, I fear you will continue to use the same argument over and over again. You are not intellectually honest, or you would admit you never had your position challenged before and now realize the entire argument is flawed. Or you can show how the rebuttal is flawed.<br />
<br />
Go ahead. Take all the time you need.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 20<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Okay, hypothetical God creates your "heaven" and everyone gets whatever they want whenever they want it. What would that world be like? What kind of person would you be? That would be a world filled with completely selfish, spoiled, and arrogant babies. This world must exist the way it is number one for love to exist, and number two to make people even capable of what God has planned for heaven.<br />
<br />
It's not my argument, it's the truth of God, and it's certainly not got any holes. Your grasping at straws at this point and pretending to be intellectually honest because you don't want to be accountable to anyone but yourself. You don't want to rely on anyone for anything, and certainly not a savior. I doubt you will be so arrogant late in life when you are forced to come to grips with your own mortality and even if it's the very last second God will still be there his arms wide open.<br />
<br />
"Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you."<br />
- Matthew 20:14<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 21<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Are you daft?<br />
<br />
Do you believe there is a heaven? Do you think there is free will in heaven? Do you think there is evil in heaven? Are the residents of heaven "completely selfish, spoiled, and arrogant babies"?<br />
<br />
"It's not my argument, it's the truth of God, and it's certainly not got any holes."<br />
<br />
Are you daft?<br />
<br />
""Let's say the only evil in the world is starvation. Let's say that the choices are: feed people meat and grains and vegetables, feed people only grains and vegetables, feed people meat and grains, or feed people meat and vegetables. Look at all these choices. Starvation solved and the choices are endless. If I can do that with one problem of evil, what stops your god from doing the same for all evil?""<br />
<br />
This marks the fourth time I have presented this to you. You refuse to acknowledge this hole. Try again.<br />
<br />
"Your grasping at straws at this point and pretending to be intellectually honest because you don't want to be accountable to anyone but yourself."<br />
<br />
Nope. I'm holding your feet to the fire. Your position that "This world must exist the way it is number one for love to exist, and number two to make people even capable of what God has planned for heaven" is silly. I have shown you this with example and analogy. You won't address any of my arguments. You change the subject and duck and cover.<br />
<br />
Like this:<br />
<br />
" I doubt you will be so arrogant late in life when you are forced to come to grips with your own mortality and even if it's the very last second God will still be there his arms wide open."<br />
<br />
I know the conversation is coming to an end when Pascal's Wager makes an appearance. Please. Only fools think the wager is anything more than nonsense.<br />
<br />
And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even.--Leviticus 15:16<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 28<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>This video goes quite nicely with the conversation we're having.<br />
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<iframe allowfullscreen='allowfullscreen' webkitallowfullscreen='webkitallowfullscreen' mozallowfullscreen='mozallowfullscreen' width='320' height='266' src='https://www.youtube.com/embed/Z1BzP1wr234?feature=player_embedded' frameborder='0'></iframe></div>
<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
How God Favors Evil<br />
<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 29<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>My knee jerk reaction when I read your posts is that you must be crazy (daft). But then I take a second and remind myself that you are an intelligent rational person who is trying to make sense of the world. So please stop asking me if I am daft.<br />
<br />
" You won't address any of my arguments."<br />
<br />
You keep bringing up this starvation as an example of evil and in almost every post I try to address it so I don't know what your complaining about.<br />
<br />
"Do you believe there is a heaven? Do you think there is free will in heaven? Do you think there is evil in heaven? Are the residents of heaven "completely selfish, spoiled, and arrogant babies?"<br />
<br />
(Just so we're clear and you don't complain later this is an extension of your starvation argument if you follow it back.)<br />
<br />
Yes, there will be a heaven. Yes, there will be free-will in heaven. No, there will not be evil in heaven God will separate all that is good (heaven) and all that is evil (hell). The residents of heaven will not be completely selfish, spoiled, and arrogant babies because people will have lived through this life. That is exactly why this world and life as we know must be this way first.<br />
<br />
(Video Response)<br />
<br />
This video is unbelievably simplistic and ridiculous. If God were to intervene and stop the situation portrayed he would have to intervene every time something bad was going to happen. On top of that your still blaming God for the evil decisions that the men are making. Either people have free-will or they don't. This all boils down to your misconceptions of love and how powerful it is. Love cannot exist without free choice and in the end love will win, and justice will be met. And to top it all off the pandering of his Hitchens sketch at the end was classic.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
March 29<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>My knee jerk reaction when I read your posts is that you are daft. But then, I remind myself that you have obviously not had your world view challenged before and are not willing to pursue what is actually true at the expense of what you find comforting. And while that may not make you daft, it comes really close.<br />
<br />
I keep using the starvation example because I think it is a more easily addressed issue than, say, the issue of rape and murder that is presented in the video. I think you have an opportunity to argue for free will in the starvation example that would not exist in the rape or murder scenario, which is why I chose it. Again, I don't think free will exists, but I'm willing to concede the point for the sake of this argument. The starvation example allows for this. Rape and murder eliminate the possibility to argue for free will, and that is why the video uses those examples instead of starvation.<br />
<br />
Remember, I was going easy on you when I made the starvation example. You've requested I do not. Which brings me to the video.<br />
<br />
"Yes, there will be a heaven. Yes, there will be free-will in heaven. No, there will not be evil in heaven God will separate all that is good (heaven) and all that is evil (hell). The residents of heaven will not be completely selfish, spoiled, and arrogant babies because people will have lived through this life."<br />
<br />
"If God were to intervene and stop the situation portrayed he would have to intervene every time something bad was going to happen."<br />
<br />
Seriously. You don't see what I'm trying to illustrate here? My argument is on your grounds, not mine. My point is that your position is not coherent. I only turn your examples on you. Why don't you see the problem here?<br />
<br />
You state on one hand that free will must be present, and the with free will comes the capacity to choose evil. But if that is true, you must explain how there is the choice to do evil in heaven, and there is no evil in heaven. Further, even if you succeed in doing this (which I doubt), you must then explain why this same scenario cannot be accomplished on earth. You assert it must be that there is free will AND evil on earth WHILE asserting that there is free will WITHOUT evil in heaven. You assert it must be so. I say your position contradicts itself and is self-refuting. Your point of view is incoherent and is bad thinking.<br />
<br />
"This all boils down to your misconceptions of love and how powerful it is. Love cannot exist without free choice and in the end love will win, and justice will be met. "<br />
<br />
You think that love wins? Did you not see the video refute that point precisely? So what if the rapist goes to hell? So what if he is tortured for eternity? How is that love winning? How is that justice? That is neither love nor justice. It is evil and vengeance. It is disgusting and morally revolting.<br />
<br />
You are right about one thing. The video is simple. It's too bad you cannot see how your free will argument is flawed BEFORE I demonstrate to you that free will is an illusion.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
April 4<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>"I remind myself that you have obviously not had your world view challenged"<br />
<br />
Do you think your the first person I've ever had this conversation with?<br />
<br />
"You state on one hand that free will must be present, and the with free will comes the capacity to choose evil. But if that is true, you must explain how there is the choice to do evil in heaven, and there is no evil in heaven. Further, even if you succeed in doing this (which I doubt), you must then explain why this same scenario cannot be accomplished on earth. You assert it must be that there is free will AND evil on earth WHILE asserting that there is free will WITHOUT evil in heaven. You assert it must be so. I say your position contradicts itself and is self-refuting. Your point of view is incoherent and is bad thinking."<br />
<br />
You're right I don't know how it will be possible that there will be free-choice without evil in heaven so I won't try and explain it to you. But I do know that it hinges on our experiences in this life and that is why God didn't just create heaven. This is not "bad thinking" it just requires actually thinking about God and not just looking for ways to dismiss him because you don't want him to exist.<br />
<br />
Let's take the video as an example. How is your world view more just? If the rapist and murderer are never caught then they will die and never be punished for their actions. How is this more just? And this is where your understanding of God's justice is flawed. They are not punished for raping and murdering only. They are punished for their rejection of God which results in a life time of remorseless evil. What do you think the punishment should be for the rejection of that which is infinitely good, true, beautiful, loving, just, merciful, and gracious?<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
April 5<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>"Do you think your the first person I've ever had this conversation with? "<br />
<br />
Yes. You certainly act like you have never considered opposing arguments. I say this because of bad thinking, like this:<br />
<br />
"You're right I don't know how it will be possible that there will be free-choice without evil in heaven so I won't try and explain it to you."<br />
<br />
Because you can't. Because by your own premise, this doesn't work. Because if we take all of your assertions up to this point, this is not the logical conclusion, and I think your premise is flawed as well. If this isn't even the logical conclusion, why do you think this is anything BUT bad thinking? Why do you think that mental gymnastics is better?<br />
<br />
" And this is where your understanding of God's justice is flawed."<br />
<br />
No. This is where god's justice is flawed. I understand just fine. You think this is okay. I find it morally repugnant.<br />
<br />
"What do you think the punishment should be for the rejection of that which is infinitely good, true, beautiful, loving, just, merciful, and gracious?"<br />
<br />
Nothing. There should be no punishment EVER for thought crime. Only hideous dictators punish thought crime. You should try to be better than the disgusting deity found in the bible.<br />
<br />
My world view is more just because in my world, no one is punished for thought crime.<br />
<br />
Tell me. Why do you think it is morally permissible to eternally punish thoughts with torture?<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
April 7<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Okay before we move on, God does not equal Big Brother. You seem to be mixing science fiction with your understanding of Theology. What dictators do you know that had the ability to know peoples thoughts?<br />
<br />
God does not punish for thought crime. You were created to love God and to be loved by him. We get the added bonus of being able to love and be loved by others. God punishes people when they reject love, goodness, truth, beauty, justice, mercy, and grace, and in doing so choose hate, fear, and evil. People can do that with their thoughts as well as their actions.<br />
<br />
"You certainly act like you have never considered opposing arguments."<br />
<br />
I consider opposing arguments all the time, and I've never heard one that was strong enough to make me reject God. You don't want God to exist, so you don't really attempt to see my point of view and you're left with extremely simplistic, closed minded arguments.<br />
<br />
I am really excited to hear how you're going to reveal to me that there is no such thing as free-will.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
April 8<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>" What dictators do you know that had the ability to know peoples thoughts?"<br />
<br />
None, which makes your god more disgusting than all the evil human dictators of all human history.<br />
<br />
"God does not punish for thought crime."<br />
<br />
O RLY? What do you call this:<br />
<br />
"God punishes people when they reject love, goodness, truth, beauty, justice, mercy, and grace, and in doing so choose hate, fear, and evil."<br />
<br />
Let's take an example. Would god reward or punish the following:<br />
<br />
There is a man who is a paraplegic. He has no arms, no legs, and cannot move. He is a living vegetable, but his brain is fully functional. In his mind, he commits whatever blasphemy you can imagine. He is an atheist, or an anti-theist, or he believes in god and hates him or whatever.<br />
<br />
Are you certain your religion does not say that god punishes thought crime? Did jesus not say that if a man lusts for a woman he has committed adultery in his heart?<br />
<br />
Or did he mean that in some context in which he means the exact opposite of what he said?<br />
<br />
"I am really excited to hear how you're going to reveal to me that there is no such thing as free-will."<br />
<br />
"I consider opposing arguments all the time"<br />
<br />
if you actually consider opposing arguments all the time, you would not be excited to hear how I am going to destroy free will. I will present to you the EXACT same argument against free will that has existed since the days of Aquinas.<br />
<br />
The reason I take you for a fool is because you present yourself as a fool.<br />
<br />
"You don't want God to exist, so you don't really attempt to see my point of view and you're left with extremely simplistic, closed minded arguments."<br />
<br />
Nope. I destroy your position without even trying. They seem simple only because I spare you the details and cut you with your own arguments. I need to go no further than your own position to show it is flawed and incoherent. I know. I used to hold the same position. And when I did, I wanted it to be true. But no matter how much I wanted it to be true, it was not.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
April 8<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>"None, which makes your god more disgusting than all the evil human dictators of all human history."<br />
<br />
So if God, who knows peoples thoughts, punishes someone that is more evil than a dictator, who doesn't know peoples thoughts, punishing them?<br />
<br />
Jesus did say that a man who lusts for a woman has committed adultery in his heart. The man rejects that which is good (respecting the woman) and chooses that which is evil (disrespects the woman). I was rejecting your label of thought crime, but if you want to continue calling it thought crime then yes God punishes for thought crime. But let me ask you is it evil to think about raping and murdering people?<br />
<br />
"The reason I take you for a fool is because you present yourself as a fool."<br />
<br />
"I destroy your position without even trying."<br />
<br />
I would like to ask you another question. Why do you reject my requests to meet for coffee or lunch? I can only assume it's because you're much braver sitting behind a computer screen. I love having these conversations with people over coffee because it's much more personal, and you can really get to know the other person. If you'd like to meet some time please let me know. Other wise I can no longer continue to waste time typing a conversation that would take one afternoon to have in person. I really have enjoyed this, and again I would love to meet somewhere (Starbucks, Coffee Grounds, Java Haute). If you aren't willing I would still love to hear your free-will argument.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
April 9<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>"So if God, who knows peoples thoughts, punishes someone that is more evil than a dictator, who doesn't know peoples thoughts, punishing them?"<br />
<br />
Yes. Do I have to keep repeating myself? Do you think this is ethical? How revolting!!<br />
<br />
"But let me ask you is it evil to think about raping and murdering people?"<br />
<br />
Nope. This is called fantasy. We have an entire entertainment industry focused on delivering fantasy, and there is nothing wrong with violence and bloodshed in movies, tv, and other entertainment. Thoughts ought not be punishable.<br />
<br />
" Why do you reject my requests to meet for coffee or lunch?"<br />
<br />
Believe it or not, I'm busy. I go to school, have a family, run a student group and am trying to organize the third secular organization in Terre Haute. I'm busy, and the internet allows me to get to you when I've time.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
April 9<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Just so I get this clear. Let us say, hypothetically, that you have a daughter in kindergarten (which I do). You would be okay with her teacher fantasizing about raping and murdering her?<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
April 9<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>You must be daft.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
April 9<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>This is exactly what you're saying! This is the logical conclusion from your argument. Thoughts are not evil. Don't just tell me I'm crazy, explain to me how I am wrong.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
April 9<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Me: But let me ask you is it evil to think about raping and murdering people?<br />
<br />
You: Nope. This is called fantasy.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
April 12<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see.<br />
- Acts 3:16<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
April 13<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Alrighty. Sorry I've been away. Had to host Andrew Seidel from FFRF at ISU's Human Rights Day. It was glorious!! I even got to pimp FFRF on TV on good friday. Heh. Didn't even plan that.<br />
<br />
There seems to be some weird christian thing that says that you cannot make a moral judgement without attaching some maniacal punishment or reward to it. Now, if you can't get around that, then I suppose I will concede your point for now. In the end, it doesn't matter.<br />
<br />
So I concede. You're right. So what? What punishment would you assign to a teacher fantasizing about raping your child?<br />
<br />
1 Corinthians 11:13 "Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?"<br />
<br />
Still playing this game, eh?<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
April 13<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I can play this game as long as you want to. My question for you is are all these verses what is really keeping you from accepting God?<br />
<br />
You think you are progressive, enlightened, intellectual, or whatever; when the reality is you've traded the truth of God in for a lie. This "thought crime" was only a small example of the fact that you don't fully understand what justice is, what love is, or what truth is. And the reason you don't fully understand is because you refuse to acknowledge the fact that these things do not come from people, they come from God.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
April 13<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Just to be clear I don't fully understand them either, but I believe faith in God gives us a better understanding.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
April 13<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Nope. The verses I quote are simply an illustration that you can use the bible to support ANY position, even contradictory ones. Indeed, we see this happen often. So often in fact, it is a mystery to me why anyone would think this is the inspired word of god. If that were true, god is an idiot.<br />
<br />
You think you are progressive, enlightened, intellectual, or whatever; when the reality is you've taken a lie and called it the truth of God. This "thought crime" was only a small example of the fact that you don't fully understand what justice is, what love is, or what truth is. (You never answered the question.) And the reason you don't fully understand is because you refuse to acknowledge the fact that these things do not come from god, they come from people.<br />
<br />
And to be clear, faith only lets you assert understanding. It does not grant it.<br />
•<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><br />
April 13<br />
Matt Larimer<br />
o<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>"There seems to be some weird christian thing that says that you cannot make a moral judgement without attaching some maniacal punishment or reward to it."<br />
<br />
Wow, this is called justice, and it's not just a "christian thing."<br />
<br />
"So I concede. You're right. So what? What punishment would you assign to a teacher fantasizing about raping your child?"<br />
<br />
Well first and foremost would be ensuring that they are not allowed to teach children.<br />
<br />
"Nope. The verses I quote are simply an illustration that you can use the bible to support ANY position, even contradictory ones."<br />
<br />
I actually agree with you about this. Every form of communication must be conceived, sent, received, and interpreted. This is true with any and all forms of communication, not just the bible. The problem is you've listened to people who have either misinterpreted it or interpreted it correctly and you just didn't like it. Then you reject the truth because it makes you uncomfortable.<br />
<div>
<br /></div>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-51652709662313110372012-06-19T23:00:00.000-04:002012-06-19T23:03:10.962-04:00Part one of a discussion with a believer on Facebook.<br />
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">This is part one of a LONG over 2
month conversation I had with a believer on Facebook. I finally stopped responding. This guy’s arguments are really worse than
the ones that I encountered on my debate blog.
I didn’t know this when I began the exchange, but this dude is actually
the pastor of a local church. He wanted
to debate me at his church. I
declined. He said he wanted to be able
to address the concerns and questions his congregation had. Didn’t seem to be my problem, and from what I
could see, his answers would leave anyone with any intelligence running to
atheism. Anyway, this is LONG. I had to break it into two parts. This is the short part. The next is really long.<br />
<br />
If any of you reading this have the stomach to get through the whole thing, you
can let me know how this debate went in a comment.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #1c2a47; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><b><span style="color: #1c2a47; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_141" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">February 14<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Why do you believe
that God does not exist?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_140" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">February 15<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">I see no reason to
think that a god does exist. There is no evidence of anything supernatural. Why
do you believe in something that cannot be shown to exist?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_139" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">February 17<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">During my sophomore
year at Indiana State (2002) I was having a great time good friends, great
parties. Then one day I started reading a Bible, which is a long story, and it
described my life exactly. I was trying to fulfill every desire I had, but I
was never satisfied. Then something happened that I can't really describe, it
was like a light switch was turned on in my head. I felt this overwhelming
since of love from God. I had always doubted, but for a few days after that God
was real to me I couldn't deny it. I understand that not everyone has these
experiences and not everyone believes those who do. I just wish people didn't
treat my like I'm crazy for it. Faith is not insane, have you ever studied the
works of Alfred Russel Wallace, Gottried Leibniz, Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle,
Louis Pasteur, or some of the great theologians like Augustine, Luther, or
Calvin?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_138" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">February 17<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">I don't think you're
crazy; I think you hold crazy beliefs for irrational reasons. Faith is
certainly delusion.<br />
<br />
I find it interesting you tell a personal story, instead of disputing my
assertment that you believe in something that cannot be shown to exist. Perhaps
I set you up for that.<br />
<br />
You should remember that I was raised catholic. I went to 12 years of catholic
schools. I'm well versed in christian theology and I've read the bible several
times. That's why I'm an atheist.<br />
<br />
Do you think your personal story gives you a rational reason for belief? Do you
think your personal story gives ANYONE ELSE a rational reason for belief?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_137" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">February 17<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Going to Catholic
school does not show you God, and reading the Bible can but does not
necessarily show you God. You asked me why I believe and I shared my
experience. Is the personal experiences of billions of people not considered
evidence?<br />
<br />
I believe that everything came from something, and that the universe and life
is not just the result of random chance. Please explain to me what is crazy
about that. Maybe your interpretations of the Bible seem crazy to you, but the
beliefs are not crazy.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_136" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">February 18<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Indeed, a school does
not "show god", but you asked if I had ever studied, and I wanted to
give you an explanation of what when and where.<br />
<br />
If every personal experience yielded the same result, then I'd say you'd have
the beginnings of an argument. However, you have already admitted that not
everyone who has such an experience shares the same result. it would seem your
experience is not unusual, but your interpretation of it may be.<br />
<br />
It is crazy to assume the natural universe has a supernatural cause. It is
crazy, because a supernatural cause is nonsense. You cannot show anything
supernatural exists, and therefore, it is crazy to think a supernatural cause
is real.<br />
<br />
The only rational interpretation of the bible is that it is not a rational
book. That interpretation seems reasonable to me. Beliefs based on an
irrational source are, therefore, delusional.<br />
<br />
You didn't answer my questions. Do you think your personal story gives you a
rational reason for belief? Do you think your personal story gives ANYONE ELSE
a rational reason for belief?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_135" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">February 19<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">I didn't ask if you
had studied I asked if you had ever read the works of a few of the most
brilliant men who have ever lived. I do want to take a second and let you know
that I don't think your beliefs are crazy. I think mankind is growing more and
more skeptical so it's natural to not believe.<br />
<br />
As far as my personal experiences are concerned it would irrational for me to
continue to disbelieve something which I have experienced. But I do not think
my experience should give someone else a reason to believe.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_134" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #AAAAAA .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">February 25<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Have you seen the
video's where Richard Dawkins admits that their maybe an intelligent designer
(possibly aliens), and that his goal in life is to kill religion? I was going
to post the links, but I won't bother if you have already seen them.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #AAAAAA .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo1; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_133" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">February 27<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">If it's the one I
recall, the point Dawkins was trying to make was that IF there WAS an
intelligent designer for life on Earth, it would have had to have come to be
through a natural process, or evolution. I agree Dawkins was a bit clumsy, but
his point was that even If you could PROVE life on Earth was intelligently
designed, it would not in any way dis-prove evolution.<br />
<br />
I think the goal of eradicating religion is a lofty goal, but an admirable one.
Religion is brain poison. Faith is delusion. To rid the world of superstitious
nonsense would be a great benefit, however unlikely.<br />
<br />
I should say, however, it is not a goal of mine. I prefer to have more
attainable goals. I prefer to keep the wall of separation of church and state
strong and wide. Freedom is the distance between church and state. My goal is
that when people speak of politics, there is no sign of religious mumbo-jumbo.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo1; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_132" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">February 27<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">So you think we should
throw out the Deceleration of Independence because of all that religious
mumbo-jumbo?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_131" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">February 27<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">is the declaration a
governing document?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">did the original
version of the declaration contain a mention of a creator?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">does the Constitution,
an actual governing document, make any reference to god(s), creators, or
religion, except to bar religious tests for office?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_130" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">February 27<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Yes the Declaration is
a governing document, without it we would still be a British colony. The original
version did not mention a creator, but it was added by either Jefferson, Adams,
or Franklin and was accepted by congress. And the constitution does make a
reference to religion. The First Amendment, and it says nothing about the
separation of church and state. It says, "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof."<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; margin-left: .25in; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 10.5pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; tab-stops: list .5in; text-indent: -.25in;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_129" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; border: none; line-height: 10.5pt; mso-border-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .25pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #E9E9E9 .75pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in; padding: 0in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">February 28<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 10.5pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: -11.25pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; mso-list: l0 level2 lfo2; tab-stops: list 1.0in; text-indent: -.25in; vertical-align: top;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Ooohhh, I'm sorry,
that is incorrect. The Declaration is NOT a governing document. It is not what
granted the colonies independence. Remember, the Declaration was written within
the first year or so of the Revolutionary War. The war raged on for a few more
years before it finally came to a close, with the Treaty of Paris, which IS a
governing document, as treaties are considered to be the "law of the
land."<br />
<br />
To make this point, what would the significance of the Declaration have been if
the colonies had LOST the Revolutionary War? Indeed, in the years immediatly
following the war, the Declaration was mostly forgotten.<br />
<br />
Please explain how you would practically implement the First Amendments WITHOUT
a separation of church and state.<br />
<br />
To illustrate this, imagine for a second that the First Amendment read instead,
"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of healthcare, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Now, this is hypothetical, of
course. But would this not create a wall of separation between state and
hospital? How would you uphold this Amendment without maintaining strict
government neutrality on all things related to healthcare?<br />
<br />
It is indeed the First Amendment that clearly separates the church from the
state. How do you read it and miss its application so widely?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Matt Larimer" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_128" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">March 2<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/rgbc.matt"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Matt Larimer</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">I apologize, I made
assertions about things which I have very little knowledge. I did notice that
you were a part of a non-religious student group on campus, and I was wondering
if you might be interested in hosting or partnering with a campus ministry to
host a debate. I recently watched a debate between Frank Turek and Christopher
Hitchens at VCU hosted by there SSA, and thought it would be a great idea to
have a similar one at ISU. Either way I would also love to get together with
you and some other members of the group for a discussion of these issues
primarily because we tend to loose our humanity through impersonal
communication like facebook. Let me know if your interested. Hope your having a
good week.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Symbol; font-size: 10pt;">·<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;">
</span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: Andrew Garber" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_127" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">March 2<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/andrewtheatheist"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Andrew Garber</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">To be honest, I've not
really considered hosting a debate. If it were to happen, the earliest would be
in the fall semester. We're pretty booked right now. We're having a bake sale
fundraiser in a couple of weeks, followed immediately by a trip to Washington
DC for the Reason Rally, and then we are hosting a speaker for ISU's Human
Rights Day event. Spring is totally booked!!<br />
<br />
Are you a member of a campus ministry group? If so, which one? Are you a
student at ISU? If you really want to schedule something, get with the
leadership of the campus ministry group you sponsor and make sure it is
something they also want to sponsor. We'll talk dates and topics then.<br />
<br />
If you want a discussion, you are free to post questions and comments on our
facebook page. Please be aware that page is NOT the place for debate. The
group's page is a safe place for non-theists to gather and communicate. My
personal page is NOT a safe harbor, and I welcome debate.<br />
<br />
I send out a newsletter for the group after each meeting. Send me your email if
you would like to be included. Our meetings are open to the public, and I send
the details of the coming meeting in the newsletter. I have a few bugs to work
out before I send the next one, so it will most likely be Tuesday or Wednesday
before I get it out.<br />
<br />
Thanks,<br />
Andrew Garber<br />
President<br />
The Fellowship of Non-Religious Students of ISU<br />
<br />
</span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/130958503617979/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">https://www.facebook.com/groups/130958503617979/</span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">o<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 7pt;"> </span></span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/130958503617979/?ref=nf"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="Description: https://s-static.ak.facebook.com/rsrc.php/v2/yq/r/pumDu010M1S.png" border="0" height="50" src="file:///C:/Users/ANDREW~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.png" v:shapes="Picture_x0020_126" width="50" /></span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/130958503617979/"><b><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Fellowship of Non-Religious Students of
Indiana State University</span></b></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: grey; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">The Fellowship exists to provide support to non-religious students
at ISU and to aid in educating others. We look to provide a safe place for
those without religious beliefs to find a sense of communi...<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ajax/sharer/?s=99&appid=2309869772&p%5b%5d=1066533358&p%5b%5d=261882730555795"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">Share</span></a><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-3324567925280709972012-05-11T00:05:00.001-04:002012-05-11T00:05:34.890-04:00The other "A" word<br />
<div class="MsoNormal">
The “A” word that’s worse than “Atheism”<br />
<br />
Recently, I participated in a competition called Ideas in the Attic for the
second time. This is a small business
contest, and the prize includes $1000.00 in advertising among other stuff. The contest is open to the public, and has
very little publicity. The site
advertises that they will select 14 finalists.
Last year there were 9 finalists and 6 showed for the actual competition. This year there were 6 finalists and 4 showed
for the actual competition. With odds
like this, I think I have a shot. The
idea is to make a 3-mintue elevator speech to pitch your idea. There are two prizes awarded: the judges pick and the audience’s pick. <br /><br /><o:p></o:p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
I sent in my application to pitch the same idea I pitched
last year: a social network for atheists.
This time I never got an email saying I’d been accepted or rejected into
the competition. So I emailed three
times. After getting no response, I
started to worry. The event was on May
8, a Tuesday. The Friday before the
event, I got a phone call.<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
The person explained that they had received my application,
but they were not going to allow me to pitch the same idea I had pitched the
previous year. The deadline for
submission was fast approaching, so I asked if I only had a few hours to come
up with a new idea. The representative
said that it was more of a soft deadline, and if I could put a new spin on it,
or some up with an alternative, I could have the weekend to figure it out. I said that was fine, and jumped online to
discuss new ideas with my friends.<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
The conversation began a little snarky. In the original idea, I hadn’t asked for
additional funding to start the project, so I figured a good new spin was to
spend some money. But on what? Suggestions for all sorts of things came up,
but I thought it should go to some charitable cause. But many of my friends didn’t like the idea
of competing with existing religious charities.
What does that leave us? Then, I
had an epiphany!<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
There is an organization called the Women’s Medical
Fund. I’d heard of it from the Freedom
From Religion Foundation. Dan Barker,
co-president, likes to donate his royalties from his old religious works to
this organization. The Women’s Medical
Fund helps low income women pay for abortions.
They do so with relatively small amounts. On the website, I saw the largest amount was
just over $200.00 and some were as small as $50.00. I thought I had a gold mine! I could ask for as little as $500.00 and help
three or four people get abortions in the first year! I sent in the new application at 11:00pm that
night, only a few hours after the original deadline and way before the end of
the weekend. I even garnered new
enthusiasm for my pitch! People said
that they would rather vote for this than for the social network. I was pumped, but a little worried. I only had three days to make a speech. And I had to condense it into 3 minutes. <br /><br /><o:p></o:p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
I got an email on Monday. It read:<br />
<br />
<span style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;">"Hello Andrew,</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt;"><br />
<br />
<span style="background: white;">We received your
new submission over the weekend. After discussing it with our committee, we
would like you to present your first idea for the social network at Ideas in
the attic.</span> <span class="textexposedshow"><span style="background: white;">Let me know if you have
any questions. I look forward to seeing you tomorrow.</span></span><span style="background: white;"><br />
<br />
<span class="textexposedshow">Best,"</span><br />
<br />
</span></span>Huh.
Interesting. <br /><br /><o:p></o:p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
At first I didn’t get it. Then my wife, who is WAY better at picking up
cues, explained that they were so flabbergasted at my second idea, that they decided
to reverse their stance on repeating old ideas.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
Look, I understood the first
ruling. I mean, who wants to hear the
same loser ideas over and over again?
The “no do-overs” rule seemed reasonable to me. I was happy to comply. I actually hadn’t considered that my new idea
would be so over-the-top controversial, that they’d allow me to do the first
idea. That really never crossed my
mind. It had now.<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
When I got to the event, I shook
the hand of the guy who had both called and emailed me. I tried to apologize for any misunderstanding. I told him that it was never my intention to
be snarky. Well, that’s not completely
true, I admitted, I did intend to ask for money, but that was as snarky as I
wanted to be. I told him it was never my
intention to submit an idea so wild and outrageous that they’d allow me to
pitch the original idea. He looked at me
and just said, “Okay.”<br />
<br />
I don’t know if he didn’t care, or if he couldn’t imagine my second idea to
have been born of anything but spite. In
any event, as I made my speech, I was sure to work in that I wanted to be able
to contribute to the community in a way that I think the religious community
has failed to endeavor. I got really
confused looks by the judges, and to avoid further controversy, simply alluded
to the Women’s Medical Fund and suggested they google it.<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
I lost, by the way. The judges picked a bed pan genie as the
winner. Basically, it’s a disposable
plastic liner for bed pans. The other
ideas were discounts from car insurance companies if you submit to a drug test,
and a kit that converts conventional cars to electric. I’m not sure how that worked. The event lacked a stage and a microphone, so
I could not hear that guy. I didn’t have
enough buddies to get the popular vote either.
The bed pan genie won both.<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
It’s not the losing that bothers
me. It’s that I think they are trying to
figure out what the heck they are going to do if they bring this event back for
a third year. They ought to know I plan
to apply again, this time ONLY with the funding abortion idea.<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
It seems there is an “A” word
that is more controversial than “Atheism,” and it is “Abortion.”<br /><br /><o:p></o:p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
Links<br />
<a href="http://www.ideasintheattic.org/">Ideas in the Attic</a><o:p></o:p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<a href="http://www.womensmedicalfund.org/">Women's Medical Fund</a><o:p></o:p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<a href="http://www.ffrf.org/">Freedom
From Religion Foundation</a><o:p></o:p></div>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-12039761628728818752012-04-20T23:39:00.001-04:002012-04-20T23:39:59.889-04:00The Belief and the Believer: the Sin and the SinnerI don't hate religious people; I hate religion.<br /><br />Yeah. I know it sounds familiar. But I think there are real differences here. First of all, religion and religious people are REAL. Seriously, no one denies that both of these things exist. Unlike sin, which is in dispute. I don't think sin exists. For the record, I define sin as an offence to god, or something god would find offensive. Since I think god is imaginary, nothing can offend it because it does not exist. Therefore, sin is also imaginary. <br /><br />But that's not the only difference. I think even believers dislike religion. How else do you explain the recent surge of christian lunacy that is the "I love jesus; I hate religion" nonsense. And this is popular. More and more I meet people who claim to be "spiritual" christians. I just raise an eyebrow and ask what in the world that means. You should see the fumbling. They don't know what it means, either. They think it's a smokescreen. I can see right through it.<br /><br />Here's another thing. When I say I hate religion, what I really mean is I hate faith. I think faith is just plain stupid. Faith is delusion and it is detrimental to society. It makes people believe irrational things for irrational reasons. Imagine the 9-11 hijackers with no faith. Please. What would they do? Sit down and enjoy the ride? Faith is harmful.<br /><br />But when people say they hate "the sin", they mean sex. They don't mean lying or stealing or killing. They are talking about sex. And consensual sex, too. Sex between consenting adults. Good, natural, clean, raunchy, hard-core, nasty, filthy dirty sexy sex. Excuse me...<br /><br />Where was I? Right. Sex isn't a sin, even if there was a god. Indeed, there have been many gods dedicated to sex and fertility. Sex is a god, so it cannot be a sin. Why all the hate for sex?<br />
<br />
I think Darrell Ray, author of the God Virus, got it right. Take sex out of religion, and you have nothing.<br /><br />It's too bad people think sex is bad. So bad they have to fight to keep consenting adults from doing it. I think we'd all be happier if we all had more orgasms. I've always said that the key to life is a blend of mastication, masturbation and meditation.Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-45285704743094284462012-04-13T12:05:00.000-04:002012-04-13T12:05:54.464-04:00Herding a Community of Cats: Forming communities of atheists<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: medium;"><span style="line-height: 200%;">The following is an extra credit </span></span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 19px; line-height: 38px;">assignment</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: medium;"><span style="line-height: 200%;"> for an online class of mine. The assignment was: "</span></span><b><i>write about what you think your role is in developing your community and what it means to be a community leader</i></b>. </div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"> In the fall of 2010, I had no idea what a group of non-believers would talk about at a meeting. Yet when a good friend of mine approached me with the idea to start a student organization for atheists, agnostics, secularists, free-thinkers, humanists and pastafarians, I was intrigued and excited. We talked about why such a group was needed, and within a few weeks, we had drafted a constitution and began to form what would eventually become the Fellowship of Non-Religious Students of Indiana State University.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"> It didn’t take long for us to see the many advantages of aligning the group with a nationally recognized umbrella organization. I contacted the Secular Student Alliance, who quickly came beside us to help organize and support our fledgling organization. The SSA provided startup manuals, tabling supplies, and even a speaker board that enabled us to bring in speakers at little to no cost. <o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;"> The purpose of the Fellowship is to bring like-minded people together; to allow those of us who lack religious faith to have a safe place to discuss matters of importance; and to educate the public about secular values. We want to help people who do not believe in gods or deities or supernatural beings a place to know they are not alone. We exist to provide community to those who think reason and rationality are preferable to faith and delusion. <o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">While the participation was primarily students at ISU, I had several people outside the university approach me about membership. They may not be students at ISU, but they shared the vision that the group had and were looking for the community that the group built. A few happened to be students at Ivy Tech Community College. I put them in touch with the secular Student Alliance, and helped with a few of the startup activities. Just this past February, the Secular Student Alliance of Ivy Tech Community College took its official place as the second SSA affiliate in Terre Haute.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">For the past two years, at ISU’s Human Rights Day, the Fellowship of Non-Religious students has provided a speaker and held a table. At this event, several high school students stop by and greet us. This year, I’ve had a few inquiries about how to begin a group at the local high schools. It is very possible that within a few months, Terre Haute will see the first SSA chapter at a high school organize.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">But I’m not content to only focus on students. Too many regular, everyday people also feel isolated. Too often people feel as though there are no other atheists or agnostics around them. They are wrong, and there is no need for them to feel alone. I’ve begun to lay the ground work to begin a chapter of Recovering Religionists, a national group founded by Dr. Darrell Ray, author of “The God Virus”. This will be a group open to the public and focused on helping people who have left religion behind or who have never professed belief in the first place. More communities mean more connections and less isolation.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">I never thought I’d be the person who would bring atheist communities to Terre Haute. It’s just worked out that way. The challenges are many. Atheists remain the most hated and mistrusted minority in the nation, according to recent polls. We are also the fastest growing population, seeing increases in numbers in all fifty states. Yet there are many of us who remain in the closet, afraid to be known to the world for fear of retribution. It is because of this bigotry that I feel compelled to bring people together and allow each of us to share our experiences with each other. <o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 200%; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; line-height: 200%; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt;">To be sure, it is a battle. There is no unifying dogma for atheism. No system of belief, no code, and no creed is required. Only a lack of a belief in deities is shared among us. For this reason, the organization of atheists has often been compared to herding cats. Cats tend to be so independent that they rarely unify into a cohesive group. Yet I think that this can be a major source of strength. It is this wide variety of backgrounds, personalities and philosophies that will others to relate to our movement, and join our cause. After all, we have science, reason, rationality and evidence on our side.<o:p></o:p></span></div>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-3086935744224782462012-03-12T22:12:00.000-04:002012-03-12T22:12:04.447-04:00I'm a no-good atheistHeh. I've been kicked off my debate blog. Apparently, I'm not taking the christian's arguments seriously. I mock them instead. Well, it's true. I DID indeed mock them. The argument from design is so flawed, all I can do is mock it. I tried to show why it is laughable, and why it fails so badly, and why it is an example of bad reasoning, but I guess that wasn't good enough. If any of my atheist readers want to take up the baton, go to andrewvtim.blogspot.com and apply to be the new atheist. If you want, I'll brief you on all of the "dogma" of the SMAD and the dragon in my pants. Good Luck.Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-32268266110563807722012-03-12T22:07:00.000-04:002012-03-12T22:07:31.966-04:00The freedom of worship is a problem?<div class="MsoNormal">The freedom of worship is a problem?<br />
<br />
<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">I guess you have heard of the birth control controversy. I thought I’d lend my thoughts on the subject. First, I know there are many people arguing that birth control pills are prescribed for a myriad of reasons outside preventing pregnancy. That’s fine, but I think it is just fine to also prescribe birth control pills for the explicit purpose of preventing pregnancy. And since this IS the primary reason these drugs are administered, why not embrace it? What’s wrong with people taking charge of their reproduction? People ought to be able to control when they do and do not want to be pregnant. <br />
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<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">I’ve tried listening to the Catholic radio guys to get a feel for why they are so opposed to the recent mandate that all insurance companies pay for birth control. What I hear is that since the Catholic Church opposes birth control, they should be able to exclude the coverage from the insurances offered to their employees. <o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">Further, they argue that this “attack” on religious freedom is an effort to limit the freedom of expression to simply the freedom to worship, and that is unacceptable. The free-exercise clause of the First Amendment should guarantee the right to decide which benefits are and are not acceptable to an employer.<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><br />
This is just plain crazy. Most people I know immediately recognize the danger of this kind of thinking. If we allow employers to decide which benefits are allowable and which are not based on nothing more than religion, what is stopping anyone from refusing to offer any benefit to anyone at any time? Where does it end? <o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><br />
It seems to me that the Obama Administration actually got this one right. Well, kinda. I mean, there are still loopholes for some religious institutions, but they are narrow. And there is a delay for the mandate to take effect. But the fact that our government has ruled that discriminating against women should not be protected by the veil of religion is a good thing. Religion does not give people the right to discriminate.<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><br />
That doesn’t mean it is illegal for you to be a bigot; it just means your bigotry will not be allowed in law or in public practice. We don’t want religion to be the reason people are lacking medical care.<br />
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God doesn’t belong in the medical profession. Doctors do. And any doctor is free to belong to whatever religion he/she wants to be. But when it comes to administering medicine, that doctor had better grab a medical journal, not the bible, for research.<o:p></o:p></div>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-31678741338048994742012-01-12T22:18:00.002-05:002012-01-12T22:18:34.852-05:00Let Freedom Ring<div class="MsoNormal">This week, Jessica Alquist won a hard-fought court battle over a prayer posted in her public high school’s gymnasium. The court found the prayer unconstitutional, and ordered its immediate removal. Jessica is an inspiration to the ideals set forth in the First Amendment. She is a credit to her school, her community and her nation.<br />
<br />
Not surprisingly, the backlash has been harsh for Jessica. Indeed, the judge in his decision noted that the school board meetings she attended would often turn into religious revivals. People in high-ranking positions flagrantly chastised Jessica for standing up for her rights and the rights of all Americans. The opposition used religious language, and even quoted the bible. In the end, this noise helped Jessica’s case. Part of the Lemon test is if the subject of dispute holds a primarily secular purpose. With people espousing personal religious beliefs and quoting scripture, it was clear to the judge and to all that this banner was in no way primarily secular.<br />
<br />
More than this, since her victory, Jessica has been bombarded with renewed harassment. All this animosity is curious to me. The anger and spite shown to Jessica is astounding. And yet, her victory ensures the people who disagree with her, can still disagree.<br />
<br />
See, the thing is that this wall that separates church and state protects the church just as much as it protects the state. While religion is kept out of government, people will be free to worship any god or gods they choose, or none at all. We enjoy free exercise, and live without any pressure from government to have or not have faith. This is the principle of the First Amendment.<br />
<br />
Perhaps religious people don’t understand that if there is no wall, we all lose. Perhaps they think everyone thinks like them. Perhaps they think people will convert if the government endorses their position. Perhaps they should figure it out.<br />
<br />
Victories like Jessica’s aren’t just for atheists. They are for the religious as well. Perhaps even more so. This victory allows the debate over the triune god, the salvation by faith, the transubstantiation, the virgin birth, and all other theological questions to go on. This keeps those differences, those denominations, those sects alive. This empowers the religious people to hold to their delusions as much as they want. They will receive no criticism from government.<br />
<br />
But they will from me. <o:p></o:p></div>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-11672064399305521752012-01-08T22:39:00.000-05:002012-01-08T22:39:15.988-05:00Positive Atheism<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="line-height: 18px;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal">If you listen to the Atheist Experience, you’ll hear their motto is they promote “positive atheism and the separation of church and state”. I like the phrase, “positive atheism”, but what does it mean?<br />
<br />
I don’t think the AE crew means that they promote “hard” or “strong” atheism. That is the belief that god is imaginary. This is slightly different than the “soft” or “weak” atheist, who simply lacks a belief in gods. I’ve said before that I am a strong atheist, but since I don’t think that is what AE means by positive atheism, I’ll save all that for later. <br />
<br />
I think the AE crew means that there are positive things about atheism that are often overlooked. Perhaps there are also things about atheists that are misunderstood, misconstrued, or misinterpreted. I think the idea is that there are positive things that come from the absence of god belief, and they want to try to emphasize them.<br />
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I heard on another podcast the term, “goblin atheist”. This was used to describe the stereotype of atheists. I think the pod cast was Ask an Atheist. Anyway, the person using the term defined it as the atheist most religious people think is the norm, yet I’ve met none. This atheist is angry ay god, having suffered some horrible twist of fate that the atheist blames god for inflicting upon him. The “goblin atheist’ is angry, callous, mean, and hurtful. He sees god as most religious people see the devil, as evil, diabolical and vicious. The point was that this person, while there may be a few who fit the stereotype, is not the most common sample of atheist. This is the outlier, the anomaly, the abnormality. I have to say, I’ve met many atheists; I’ve not encountered a goblin.<br />
<br />
Instead, I find atheists who are filled with joy, harmony, peace, and skepticism. I find people who seek knowledge, truth and wisdom. I find atheists who look for community and friendship. If they are bitter about anything, it is the ever-encroaching, ever-intruding, ever-perverting force of religion. If they are angry about anything, it is how victories in freedom of speech allow nutbags like the Westboro Baptists to protest funerals. And yet, they remain focused on helping those who have come to reason to find each other, to network together, and support one another.<br />
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I think atheism is a positive thing. It holds no supernatural savior will help us; we must help ourselves. We must help each other. God isn’t here; we are.<o:p></o:p></div>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-66474623915780661652011-11-21T23:12:00.000-05:002011-11-21T23:12:18.775-05:00Jesus is a moral failure.<div class="MsoNormal"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal">Every so often, I’m confronted by people who want to tell me that this jesus character was the picture of morality. They want me to think that this guy was the best example of a human that ever walked the earth. Now, I don’t think for a second that there even WAS a jesus, but if he did exist, he was an asshat.<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal">First, let me say that if jesus was a fictional character, he has lots of competition for this, “best of the best human” award. As far as superpowers go, even the Wonder Twins knock jesus out of the park. Jesus walked on water? One of the Wonder Twins changed into water! Jesus healed the sick? The other Wonder Twin changed into an eagle! Oh, but they weren’t human. That’s a good point. Wolverine is human. He heals like crazy. <br />
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br />
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">But to jump away from comics, if jesus was real, he still loses. Anyone who has not condemned people who don’t like them to eternal torment is better than jesus. That makes Hitler more moral than the savior. Nice, huh?<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><br />
But even if we just look at the saving part, jesus is ethically compromised. We are supposed to believe that this guy has taken upon himself the weight of the sins of all people for all time. This sounds suspiciously like a scapegoat. Now, scapegoats are not a moral practice, right? You know the origin of the scapegoat, no? In summary, the people of a village would symbolically place upon a goat the weight of the sins of the village. Then the animal was lead out of the village and killed. The sins left with the goat, and the village would be safe from the retribution from some petty deity. Jesus is a scapegoat. That’s not ethical.<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><br />
Our morals have evolved past stupid scapegoats. We understand that if you err, you cannot place the responsibility on a goat. You messed up; you deal with it. If I get a jail sentence, I cannot pay anyone to serve it for me. That’s not allowed, and that is the deal you MUST take from the savior. The deal offered to you in christianity is a scapegoat, and that is not an ethical practice.<o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><br />
We have moral issues today, but they will not be solved by invoking a Bronze Age book. They not be solved by invoking an imaginary deity. They will be solved by you and me. God isn’t here; weare.<o:p></o:p></div>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-60790727280876043112011-10-26T22:39:00.000-04:002011-10-26T22:39:25.679-04:00Guest blog: How an Atheist finds meaning and purpose in lifeIn my <a href="http://andrewvtim.blogspot.com/">debate blog</a>, a friend of mine posted an extraordinary response to the question, "How does an atheist find meaning and purpose in life?" This is <a href="https://www.facebook.com/#!/Driochtor">Mande Hubbard's</a> response. If you like it, tell her so on her <a href="https://www.facebook.com/#!/Driochtor">facebook page</a>.<br />
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">No purpose to life? The first assumption is that we gain understanding of life through evolution, which we do in a biological and scientific manner, but if you're speaking to a philosophical perspective, evolution doesn't address that.<o:p></o:p></span></div><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><o:p><span style="font-family: Calibri;"> </span></o:p><span style="font-family: Calibri;">What I will say is that nowhere in evolution is there 'no purpose' to life, nor is there purpose. Evolution is not an entity. Evolution is a method or system by which organisms continue on, natural selection is the way that this works most effectively in a changing and stable environment (some environments are stable, some are not, see the red queen hypothesis for more information regarding the outcome of different environments on parasites, asexual reproduction and sexual reproduction). The purpose of life from a purely biological standpoint, is to survive and produce viable offspring that can further your genetic makeup for generations. So in essence, the biological standpoint would place the continuation of one's genetic makeup as the sole purpose. If you mean to ask what the purpose of life is on a grand scale, I ask...does it matter? This is my first question because you can't delve into purpose and meaning on a grand scale immediately. We have to conclude whether or not it matters what the end result of all that is and will be, is important, or if there would need to be a purpose. To that I say it doesn't matter. Whether the universe has no sentient purpose, or does, is irrelevant to us, because we are so small and insignificant that we will never really take part in anything on such a massive scale. Our minute lives will not change or alter if we discover that the universe and all of time has no purpose. Nor will our lives change if we discover that the universe and all of time has a complex purpose. Our lives are small in comparison to time. Humans live, on average, about 80 years. When we examine the time line of the universe, 80 years is merely a microscopic piece of time that on its own is meaningless, in the way that a speck of dirt is meaningless to the whole of the earth. It would be pointless for a speck of dirt to base it's life or existence on the purpose of the earth, as it's presence is neither felt nor missed. So if you're asking what evolution (because you seem to think we derive all values from evolution for some reason) has planned and what is the purpose of all time and the universe, I say it's irrelevant. A curiosity, certainly, and one I think we should examine, but it's not going to alter or change the fabric of anyone's life if we discover it. <o:p></o:p></span></div><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">But let's move that and ask the question in a smaller scale. What is the purpose of life on earth? We should also define by what we mean when we say purpose. Do we mean, what is the value of everything on the earth in the context of the whole picture? Where does each individual life lead? In that we have to further define purpose. Do we mean, what is the ultimate end result of the earth? What does each life before that moment mean in the context of the end result? How does each individual life contribute to the end result? <o:p></o:p></span></div><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">Already we're having trouble defining such an abstract idea. Sure we can examine the dictionary to define it for us, but then we run into further problems. The best form of the definition which will give us a more concrete understanding of purpose essentially defines purpose as a goal, or intended result. This is going to pose problems because 'intended' implies consciousness (something we're not entirely sure even we have). Consciousness implies sentience (again, a loose term). So the problem with the concept of 'purpose' is that we don't really know what 'purpose' is, even in a definitional way, we still come to a very loose, abstract idea that is difficult to define in a way that we can all agree. <o:p></o:p></span></div><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">So in a way you could say that evolution has no purpose, largely because it is not sentient and has no intended goal. That still confounds problems because you're implications are that somehow we attribute evolution to the basis of our ethics (I don't say morality because I see ethics and morality as the same, except that morality is religious and ethics are secular). This is a false idea. Evolution does not work on ethical behavior, it functions to maximize behavior that is conducive to the spreading of genes from one generation to another. More specifically, it further behavior in the individual which provides the most 'fitness' (which is measured generally by how many offspring survive and reproduce, in a basic sense). Evolution then builds on behaviors that are both ethical and not ethical, because evolution is amoral (not IMmoral, A moral, meaning it has no morality much like the wind, or water, or gravity). Ethical behavior can only be exhibited by sentient beings (again, a loose term, and not going to extrapolate it further to define sentience), so evolution can not have ethical behavior. It can only create and propagate the best ideas for survival, such as, the motivation different ethnic groups have to eradicate each other due to limited resources. <o:p></o:p></span></div><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">My point is, evolution is not the basis for ethics and therefore not the basis for the purpose of life, because it has no stake in it. It's the same as using gravity as a way to define purpose and ethics. They don't fit together. Now we can examine the evolution of ethical behavior in animals and find out why ethical behavior is programed (we have done this already) and utilize the human and animal behavioral models to maximize ethical behavior so that all can benefit from the positive aspects of the universe (if that makes sense to anyone). But to assume that anyone basis their ethical behavior and meaning on evolution is to invoke the naturalistic fallacy, which is absurd.<o:p></o:p></span></div><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">Ethics and 'purpose' are and individual preference. Religious find purpose and 'ethics' within their doctrines, which when read fully and not cherry-picked can call into question the legitimacy of the claim being presented. There are several passages in the bible where even Jesus condones murder, while then turning around and condoning kindness to others. Gaining morality from a book is a questionable procedure largely because few religious people take extensive amount of time to work out the logic of such a moral choice. If we take gay marriage for example, some will say it's wrong because the bible says so, and when pressed, will express that it's not a natural state for animals. This is generally as far as it goes, because there are hundreds of species which engage in homosexual behavior, including homosexual pairing. If you were to ask these same people, after showing the act being done by other animals, routinely, in nature, there is little reason to have a negative opinion other than to invoke god. I don't see this as commendable, because then you are gaining your 'moral' behavior from someone purely on the basis of 'I told you so.' This is blindly obedient and can lead far more to immoral (such as genocide, see WWII as a more recent example) behavior because these people do not question or invoke rational thought to explain their behavior. This happens more often than someone might think and there is plenty of psychological evidence to support the fact that people will do horrendous things if they view the person as superior and as having authority. Putting religious people into this position their entire lives, concerns me, because good people, do horrible things out of this 'I told you so' mentality.<o:p></o:p></span></div><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">My ethical behavior is derived from continuous thought. How do my actions effect other individuals? How do my actions effect humans versus animals? Do each of these groups feel pain, happiness, etc, and to what extent? How do my actions effect the environment, and how would that, on a larger scale, impact the future of the earth, and potentially the universe? My list could go on, but this is a sample of the sort of questions I ask. When confronted with my own values, I ask questions that may or may not challenge them, and I pose possible scenarios for the impact of these values on others, negative and positive. My ethics, are therefore derived from continuous refinement, previous philosophers and their logical arguments, and the potentiality for my behavior on an individual and large scale to invoke harm or good to other humans, animals, the earth, and the universe. In the end, my desire for all other life is to see it respected and to see it content. Is this possible? To an extent and my values reflect this. Is there room for refinement and improvement? There always is and that is the difference between myself and someone who takes their pastor's word for it. My values and ethics change depending on new information that is derived about the world about me and how I, as an individual, can improve that world for everyone. I do not require a man in a pulpit to tell me how to do that, as I am an intellectual, and I am a thinking being who as compassion and motivation. I would even dare to say that my ethics and my values, are superior to any who derive all of their values and ethics from an ancient, and I would be prepared to test that any day.<o:p></o:p></span></div><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><o:p><span style="font-family: Calibri;"> </span></o:p><span style="font-family: Calibri;">As far as purpose is concerned. There is no purpose to the universe because the universe is not sentient. It has no goal in mind because it is not sentient. This is not a problem, but a freedom. Consider, if the universe has nothing in mind, this gives us the opportunity to find our place, our individual place, within the world and define ourselves based on how we would that like world to look. If we think of the universe as a pond. A pond has no purpose. A pond is a bowl of water that sustains life, but it has no goal, no purpose mind. It simply is. The fish within it, the algae, the bacteria, the microscopic organisms, are all that is within the universe (if the universe is like a pond). The fish do not define their lives based on the goal of the pond. That would be silly. The fish define their lives based on that which is around them. Their goals, their desires, their motivations, define their purpose in life. Likewise, we define ourselves within the context of our fish bowl. We look to that which is around us, the devastation, the hope, the pain, the happiness, and with our own motivations, we define ourselves and therefore our purpose in life. What are goals besides desires to do something. It is all this which creates purpose on a grander scale. <o:p></o:p></span></div><br />
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">Now you could say, well, some people want only to hurt others. This is true, no matter the religion of the person, there are, in all species, defectors and cheaters of the system. Religion doesn't make these people better, it obscures them, as they thrive in particular environments if given the chance, and even religious offer the chance to advance oneself despite being a cheater or a defector. However, in the whole of the population, these people are a small percentage as the population can not survive with a large percentage of these people. If they grow too large, their niches start to collapse. Consider if lying was condoned, people would lie all the time and then few people would trust one another, and eventually the system collapses (plenty of science on this, it's a prisoner's dilemma). So you'll always have cheaters and defectors no matter how many religious or nonreligious you have. It's independent of it. So using this would be an invalid critique of defining the self based on personal motivation and desire.</span><o:p><span style="font-family: Calibri;"> </span></o:p></div><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">My point to this entire post, is that purpose can be found in the self, and for many of us, is, and then further defined by outside information. With religious, purpose is defined by the self and the church, which again, is questionable. Ethics can be defined without religion as many of us take a great deal of time and pain to meticulously polish our values to suit what maximizes happiness and pleasure among not just humans, but often other species as well.<o:p></o:p></span></div><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">The invoking of not having morality or purpose, or any such thing against atheism is an old stone that has been thrown and immersed by plenty of logical statements debunking that fallacious argument. <o:p></o:p></span></div><br />
Bravo, Mande!! Bravo!Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-29750370762915650662011-10-10T00:02:00.000-04:002011-10-10T00:02:32.529-04:00Closet? What closet?<span style="font-family: Calibri;">I’m not one to be in a closet.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>As soon as I found atheism, I was out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It never even occurred to be that I ought to consider being in the closet.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m just not that kind of guy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You probably guessed that by now.<br />
<br />
But now, things have changed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My son is getting involved in Cub Scouts.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He really likes it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I find scouting to be a complete waste of time and energy, but he finds it enjoyable so he can go have fun.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This weekend he went camping with his Nana.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He had a blast.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He went and sold popcorn.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He was very good at it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He looks forward to meetings and participates well.<br />
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Now I know most Scout leaders wouldn’t give a shit if my son is the child of atheist parents.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But even so, I know the official stance of the Boy Scouts of America is to shun those without religious faith.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So for the first time since I became an atheist, I’m in the closet.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Somewhat.<br />
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I recently went to a LGBT meeting at my local public library.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It was a really cool meeting.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It reminded me a lot of my meetings for my atheist group.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They told coming-out stories, shared experiences of discrimination, gave support and encouragement to those who had felt lost, lonely or isolated.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That’s exactly what my group does.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They talked about the closet.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It’s never a comfortable place to be.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now I get it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I never really did before.<br />
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It sucks.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Many of the other parents of scouts are people who we see all the time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>These are my son’s friends’ parents.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We talk often.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Eventually, someone will say something and I am SO BAD at biting my tongue.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It would truly suck if I got my kid kicked out of a group he enjoys so much.<o:p></o:p></span>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-57232928908588365452011-09-20T22:26:00.000-04:002011-09-20T22:26:05.271-04:00My Way or the Highway<st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Alice</st1:place></st1:city>: “I seem to have lost my way.”<o:p></o:p><br />
The Red Queen:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“YOUR way?!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>ALWAYS MY WAY!”<o:p></o:p><br />
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">There was a dude on the Christian radio trying to explain why teens should remain Christian, even if they have questions about their faith.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We came to what the defender described as the biggest deal-breaker for most young people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“What does God do to those people who have never heard the Gospel of Jesus, and what did he do with the people who live before Jesus came around?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Interesting question.<o:p></o:p></div><br />
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Like I said, the guy answering this question admitted that this was a big deal for most people.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He said that most every teen he encountered asked this question in one way or another.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>He realized the importance of this answer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This was it:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>“I don’t know. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If God sent them to hell, that doesn’t seem fair, but if he let them into heaven then Jesus is NOT the only way to heaven, and we KNOW that Jesus IS the ONLY way to heaven.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We know God will do what is right, but we don’t know what that is.”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>WTF?<o:p></o:p></div><br />
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Seriously, What The FUCK?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So you understand that this is an important answer, and all you have is I don’t know?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How is that an answer?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God will do what is right, but we can’t know what that is?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Aren’t you the asshats who try to sell that “objective moral standards come from God” bullshit?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How is the answer to this I don’t know?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But wait.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It got better.<o:p></o:p></div><br />
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Answerman went on to say that we should not criticize God for giving us only one way to please him.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Instead, we should rejoice that he gave us A way.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We should not concern ourselves with those who have not heard the Word, but rejoice that we have.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Jesus is the Way, and you can take it, or the highway.<o:p></o:p></div><br />
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">You’d think that after identifying a deal-breaking question, you’d have a good answer for it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This is the same crap I heard when I asked this question years ago.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Seriously, do these morons actually think this is a good answer?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God says my way or the highway, unless you’ve never heard of my way, then maybe.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You get to guess.<o:p></o:p></div><br />
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">God is supposed to be able to do the right thing all the time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But it is still evident to me he blunders and stumbles through it just as we do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Perhaps if we all simply admit that the quantities of god reflect those qualities we see in ourselves, perhaps we can all find the right thing to do, and realize there is more than one way to be a good person.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God isn’t here; we are.<o:p></o:p></div>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-35242077872461412952011-09-03T23:14:00.000-04:002011-09-03T23:14:08.295-04:00Keep On Sinnin'<h2 class="post-title">“The only reason you want to be an atheist is so you can continue to live a sinful lifestyle!”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><br />
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I’ve heard this a lot before.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I guess I never really thought about it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I always thought they were talking about lying or stealing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was never much for theft, and I gave up lying with religion, so I thought the statement was absurd.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Besides, it wasn’t like believers don’t sin; their lifestyle was as sinful as mine.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So why do they shout this accusation?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And why is it said with such venom?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think I have the answer.<br />
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Well, first, it’s not lying and stealing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They are referring to what believers call “sexual sin”.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>This means we are going to continue to enjoy sex, have sex outside marriage, masturbate, and fantasize.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We are going to look at pornography and like it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We are going to use sex toys and lubrication.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We will use positions other than the missionary position.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we will like it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We will even teach our children comprehensive sex education, where they will learn such activity is normal, fun, and sin-free.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Of course, we will also teach our children about condoms and birth control, and encourage them to experiment safely.<br />
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I know what you’re thinking, “Andrew, where’s the sin?”<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Well, I don’t see any.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And that’s the problem.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You see, the believer can do all these things and then become overwhelmed with grief and guilt.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The believer has been taught that this is all an abomination to god, and they have disobeyed god’s order for sex.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They must be cleansed; they have soiled their souls.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They have lost their precious purity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><br />
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The believer thinks it is normal to have such feelings if guilt and grief after having an orgasm.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>When they encounter people like me who grin after ejaculation instead of running off to pray for forgiveness, they feel angry, jilted, and frustrated.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How come I get to have all kinds of fun and they can’t?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Aren’t they supposed to be better than me?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Why doesn’t it feel that way on the bedroom?<br />
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You see, I’ve grown up.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I no longer blush and giggle when someone says “penis” or “vagina”.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t feel uncomfortable talking about sex, orgasms, condoms or the fact I like them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And I’ve realized that these things are natural, good, and in no way sinful.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I understand that this can be a source of great happiness and fulfillment, rather than the abysmal source of shame and guilt it used to be.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><br />
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Now I’d like to say that I reject god simply so I could masturbate without Jesus, and his mother, and his father watching me.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’d think it was funny if I embraced atheism in order to gain a free pass to porn.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But this is not the case.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It is simply a bonus.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><br />
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I find the existence of god to be nothing more than a fairy tale.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now that I’m a grown up, I discard fairy tales in favor of erotica. </h2>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-8882596688595775862011-08-10T23:03:00.000-04:002011-08-10T23:03:30.851-04:00The bible, the baby, and the bathwater Though it is abundantly apparent to me and most other atheists, some believers have a hard time swallowing this.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>To get a loving and benevolent god out of the bible, some serious cherry-picking has to take place.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That is, we chose to read and believe certain parts of the bible while discarding or ignoring others.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They will hold fast to the abomination that is homosexuality while enjoying a shrimp cocktail.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>They would never consider killing their child, but god likes to have children killed in his book.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>No one thinks people should be killed for working on the Sabbath, or getting a tattoo, or wearing polyester.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><o:p></o:p><br />
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Now I want to make it clear that I’m glad the average self-proclaimed Christian does NOT want Long John Silvers and Red Lobster banned.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think it would be a travesty if we executed rape victims or tried to outlaw businesses being open on Sunday.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I would hope everyone agrees that we should not execute rebellious teenagers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I’m thankful for that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But why don’t we?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How is it that we CAN distinguish between the baby and the bathwater in the bible?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It seems many believers take away a message of hope, love and charity from the bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>How is that possible considering the book also contains horrific displays of cruelty, violence and torture?<o:p></o:p></div><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><o:p> </o:p>It seems to me that we take something of ourselves to the bible when we read it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We look for something that reinforces what we think we want to read, and find it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We place upon the bible our own views, hopes, fears, and goals.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We use the bible to find the answer we think we should find.<o:p></o:p></div><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><o:p> </o:p>To me, the atheist, it seems this is the long way to the answer.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Since it is obvious we take our own pre-conceived notions to the bible, why not leave the bible out and look at the pre-conceived notion by itself?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It doesn’t have to be right; it can be wrong.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If truth is what we really want, then we cannot simply look for reinforcement.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>We have to look for the contrary and discover why it should be considered or dismissed.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><br />
What I’m trying to say is that within each of us is the ability to cherry-pick what we want from the bible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>So we don’t need it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Do you need a book to tell you that murder is bad?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Do you need a book to tell you that equality is good?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Do you?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Of course not.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You understand that stealing is wrong and sharing is good.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>You don’t need a book to tell you that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And if you find the opposite in a book, you should dismiss it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Or realize the author was trying to illustrate how humans can rationalize anything to be good with delusional thinking.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Or it was some other form of artistic expression.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><o:p></o:p><br />
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">There are good ideas we should take from the bible:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>treat others as you would be treated, love your enemy, etc.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And we should be appalled at the idea we should keep consenting adults from marrying each other.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If we cherry-pick the bible, we will find good fruit.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If we take the whole thing, we will consume compost.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>If we acknowledge that we are cherry-picking, we can also acknowledge the book is not the inerrant word of god, but that some lessons are indeed timeless.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Others must be discarded, and revisited only to illustrate the journey we have taken.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><o:p></o:p></div>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-4253869029847747162011-07-30T16:17:00.003-04:002011-07-30T16:19:16.912-04:00I miss hell<span style="font-family: Calibri;">The other day I was talking with my wife about things I missed about belief.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I was talking about the sense of belonging and community that can be lacking in the atheist community.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Sure there’s facebook and such, but there is no real substitute for actual personal interaction.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>My wife brilliantly stunned me by saying, “I miss hell.”<o:p></o:p></span> <br />
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<span style="font-family: Calibri;">What she meant was that when she was a believer, it gave her great comfort to “know” that Hitler and other mass murderers were being tormented in hell.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>She liked the idea that every day at noon, Hitler would get a pineapple shoved into his bottom.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>It gave her comfort and pleasure to think there was some great justice done to those who had caused so much death and suffering.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Now, she said, she was saddened by the thought the fate of Hitler would one day be shared by her: she would simply die.<br />
<o:p></o:p></span><br />
<span style="font-family: Calibri;">I’ve said before that I think one of the reasons people stay in religious circles, even if they have doubts, is because they get so much comfort from their beliefs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I just never thought hell was one of those comforting thoughts.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>But I see it now.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And while I, too, dislike the idea that I will one day be on par with the murderers of the past, I find this can be turned around a bit.<o:p></o:p></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Calibri;">Perhaps we must be motivated even more to make things right now, while we are alive.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Perhaps we must become active and involved at some level to do good and be good without god.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Perhaps this is one more reason to fight against the encroachment of superstition and religious nonsense into secular lives.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God isn’t here; we are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>And when we are dead, it is over.<o:p></o:p></span>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-35325295867328836092011-07-15T23:42:00.000-04:002011-07-15T23:42:48.865-04:00It takes more faith to be a WHAT?!Back when I was a believer, this whole "it takes more faith to be an atheist" thing held me for a while. It seemed to be an argument against losing faith. That is, if I leave my faith, I will be required to employ even more faith, and that is what I am leaving. So why leave? But this doesn't hold faith itself in high regard, does it? The idea now is to have the least amount of faith possible, and that is to be a believer.<br />
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But this net is so flimsy; I really don't know how it held me for so long. Faith is supposed to be a virtue, and if I believe that faith IS a virtue, AND I believe that it takes more faith to be an atheist, why not be an atheist? Now the atheist has the more virtuous viewpoint? How did that happen? <br />
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Is this the believer admitting that faith is not virtuous? Why would you want to show the opposing side that they possess more of the virtue you hold in such high regard and that they hold in such low regard? It’s not like you see a bunch of atheists telling believers that it takes more gods to not believe in gods than it takes to believe in gods. What? That last statement makes just as much sense as the title of this blog. Stop re-reading it. It does. Have some faith. Sheesh.<br />
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Then you realize that it requires NO faith to not believe in imaginary deities, fairies, unicorns, dragons, chimeras, etc. Do you believe in pixies? Does that require faith? So really, losing faith really does mean losing faith. That is, after all, why they call it losing faith. It takes LESS faith to be an atheist. Duh.<br />
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But that misses this point:<br />
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If you are a believer, and you think faith is virtuous, and you think atheists have more faith, why do you chose not to have as much faith as you think the atheist does? Why are you in such a hurry to lose the faith competition? <br />
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It’s okay to lose your faith. It’s not virtuous. It’s delusion. Trust me.Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-33971535221040034792011-07-10T23:02:00.002-04:002011-07-10T23:02:43.181-04:00Giving up the god ghost<br />
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I often hear people say things like, “It’s in god’s hands now, “ or, “I’ve given it over to god,” or “Jesus is my co-pilot.” I think this is code for giving up.<br />
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People say these things when times are tough. Let’s face it; times can indeed be tough. We all go through rough patches, and some are rougher than others. In times like this, we can either look for help, or look to superstition. I’m not denying that things get hard. I’m saying that we make things worse when we ignore the problem and not take action. Rarely is inaction the solution. We need to do something, and I don’t mean pray. Nothing fails like prayer. <br />
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When things are rough, we have to be able to rely on what really helps. Friends, family, and the people we know we can ask for help. They may not actually be able to help, but at least the people are real and they will try. When we appeal to the imaginary to help us, we get nothing.<br />
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While people may not be very helpful, superstition can at least make you feel better. But is it really better? To say that the religious person is happier than the atheist is no better than saying the drunkard is happier than the sober person.<br />
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It angers me when I hear people say that they’ve given it over to god. That really means that have given up. I remember back in the day when I played sports. My coaches always told me that it’s not if you win or lose, it’s how you play the game. The only real defeat comes when you give up or when you forfeit the game. But that is exactly what religion seems to encourage us to do when things are at the worst. While religion claims to have all the answers to all life’s questions, it seems when push comes to shove, the only solution it offers is no solution at all. “Give it over to god” is a cop-out. A lame attempt to solve a problem by ignoring it. <br />
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I was recently asked what motivates me. I answered that god isn’t here; we are.Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-29312099434809816922011-07-07T23:12:00.000-04:002011-07-07T23:12:05.269-04:00Answers in Atheism?If there is a valid critique of atheism, it should be that there are no answers in atheism, save one. The only answer in atheism is to this question, “Do you believe in gods or deities?” The answer is, “No!”<br />
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Religion, by contrast, offers all the answers you could ever imagine, and a few you can’t. But there’s a problem. While the questions may be consistent, the answers certainly are not. Hence, we have thousands of different Christian denominations alone. Every one seeks to answer the same questions, with varying responses. People go “church-shopping”, looking for the denomination or church that is closest to what they already think is true. But is that REALLY a path to truth?<br />
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This is, after all, a group that prides itself on being right. But with no evidence to back up a single claim, and with apologetics suggesting that without evidence all things are equally probable, why not look to the buffet of religions to find the one that suits you? As long as they talk about jesus, they must be alright, right? At least they have jesus. <br />
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It seems to me that most people cannot articulate why they are one kind of believer and not another. When they can, it is almost always an inheritance. They believe as their parents did. But again, for a group so focused on having the “T”ruth, isn’t this a really bad way to find it?<br />
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Atheism may not have answers, but I think that is a good thing. It’s obvious the answers are not in religion. Once we can get past the nonsense of “the-bible-said-it-so-I-believe-it-and-that’s-that” foolishness, we can start having a real discussion about what the answers might be. But we can’t do that with god in the way. We must find the answers. God isn’t here; we are.Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-66605541807244608972011-07-01T00:42:00.000-04:002011-07-01T00:42:33.569-04:00A conversation I had with a believer through Facebook messaging.Between You and Mary Randall<br />
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Mary Randall May 19 at 7:42pm Report<br />
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why is it soooooooooooooooooooooo hard for those that do not believe in GOD to accept those that do, why is it sooooo hard for you not to live and let live, finally, why is it soooooooo necessary for those that do not believe in God to waste soooooooomuch of their valuable time trying to DISPROVE WHAT THE CHRISTIANS CAN NOT PROVE!!!!! sheesh, you people have an obsession over a belief that you do not even believe in ...sad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <br />
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Andrew Garber May 19 at 8:34pm <br />
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You are, of course, free to believe whatever nonsense you wish. But it is my experience that our beliefs inform the positions we take socially and politically. For this reason, people who hold superstitious nonsense as truth should be held accountable for holding such crap as truth. They should pay the price of thinking fairy tales are true, the way we make people who think the world will end in two days pay for their ridiculous beliefs.<br />
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I assume you took a look at the most recent blog post I made. That was done a couple of years ago. I admit it was a bit time consuming to both read and deconstruct the original author's crap, but I thought it a good use of time as he asserted it would be evidence I had not considered for the existence of god. He was so wrong I had to respond.<br />
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Not unlike this response here.<br />
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I find it sad that people hold as true beliefs not rooted in evidence. I find it sad that people think that these ideas should be treated equally as those what ARE backed by evidence. I think it is sad that people do not provide any evidence for their claims, but instead wish I would stop hurting their precious feelings. If you don't want your rediculous beliefs ridiculed, don't hold such stupid beliefs. <br />
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Mary Randall May 19 at 9:21pm Report<br />
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THE FACT STILL REMAINS; YOU DO NOT PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS. YOUR ARGUMENT APPEARS TO BE YOU DO NOT FIND CHRISTIANITY *SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE* AND CHRISTIANS SHOULD SOMEHOW BE ACCOUNTABLE TO YOU. I TRUTHFULLY DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU BELIEVE BECAUSE IN MY CHRISTIAN BELIEF, YOU CAN SIMPLY GO TO HELL OF YOUR OWN ACCORD IF YOU LIKE BUT IN MY SECULAR BELIEF, I THINK YOU ARE AT A REAL DISADVANTAGE BY NOT BELIEVING BECAUSE THERE IS NO HOPE FOR YOU BEYOND THIS LIFE AND WITHIN THIS LIFE YOU ARE WASTING YOUR PRECIOUS AND LIMITED TIME WITHOUT ANY REAL CAUSE ON EARTH OTHER THAN A *VOID* OF BELIEF IN A SUPERSTITION, WHAT KIND OF LIFE IS THAT? <br />
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Mary Randall May 19 at 9:29pm Report<br />
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HONESTLY ANDREW, MY SON IS JUST LIKE YOU! HE HAS OVER 5000 PPL ON FACEBOOK AND IS AN AUTHOR OF NON BELIEF. BRILLIANT AUTHOR BUT SINCE HE DID FALL AWAY FROM CHRISTIANITY, HE IS ONE NASTY PERSON AND OTHER THAN BEING HATRED AND ANGER DRIVEN IT APPEARS HE HAS NO REAL ENJOYMENT OR CAUSE IN LIFE, HE CERTAINLY HAS NO ANSWERS FOR HOW TO FIND HAPPINESS AND CONTENTMENT IN LIFE...ONLY SOME SICK OBSESSION TO CONVINCE THE WORLD GOD DOES NOT EXIST AND AS I TOLD HIM, HE SIMPLY CAN NOT DO THAT SO, GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <br />
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Andrew Garber May 19 at 10:01pm <br />
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I see we've moved to all caps. Quaint. And I disagree.<br />
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I have the advantage of being able to decipher what is real. Believers have the disadvantage of accepting some things as true on faith, not fact. When you do this, you compromise your ability to tell fact from fiction.<br />
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You should read my blog, "A meaningless life without god". It's the first one I loaded at andrewtheatheist.reasonblogs.org. Life has more meaning without the supernatural, not with it.<br />
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Believers are not accountable to me. I simply think that if we consider people who think bigfoot is real are nuts, we chould also consider people who think god is real are nuts. Go ahead and be a nut. Just be aware we think you are a nut.<br />
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I need convince no one that god does not exist. Atheism is not a path to happiness or contentment. It is only the answer to the question, "Do you believe in god(s)?"<br />
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My apostasy, as I gather your son's, was a difficult time in my life. I blog so that others may find help in their journey away from myth and dogma. That inspires me.<br />
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It is sad that you think it is anger and hatred drives us. Rather, it is the opportunity to show you, and others who think like you, that it is not necessary to believe to be good. <br />
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Mary Randall May 20 at 1:04am Report<br />
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Ok, just like you, my son had a very difficult time as he journeyed away from christianity. Consider this, I gave birth to him and i can see that it has done him no good to leave christianity but rather made him a very unlikable person, also a very manipulative one as well. Religious or non religious these personality traits are not a good thing to have. in his own words, * i will either prove this god right or i will rip him to shreds*. i never could quite understand this because to me, if someone or something is not believed to exist, why waste your time on *nothing*. i do not agree with christophers belief or non belief but at the same time i can and did appreciate and respect his talent as an author. nobody can take that from him as he is nothing short of brilliant in writing . i actually agreed to not only be supportive of him but to financially support him while he wrote and published his first book. Unfortunately as months went by and after every chapter he was very demanding that i read his material as he wrote. non-judgmental i did so but i started getting the vibe that my son was definitely hoping to deconvert me in the process. our relationship has ended for a time because as i told him, it’s not because i am catholic that you will never succeed in my deconversion, it’s not because i read my bible from cover to cover that i choose to believe, its not because someone drilled this belief deep within my resources that i will not be swayed, its because when i was 4 years old i inhaled water 2 and one half times while being trapped in a pond and some supernatural being pulled me out, laid me on the bank, sucked the water thru my nostrils...and disappeared before my eyes with a gentle voice telling me to go home to my mom she was worrying about me. also, i believe in GOD because he miraculously intervened several times in my life and while on my death bed, i received a supernatural healing and lived when i should have died, also i was a woman that worked post katrina in new orleans, was beat to death but did not die, was later poisoned as i felt the life draining out of me, fainted with my last breath, as any dying human would die, i died but as my spirit was passing....i came back to my body and lived, later was forcefully taken to a cemetery in new orleans where all vaults are above ground, a man was attempting to bury me alive inside and enclose me when out of the blue, in totally abandoned city a man appeared, dressed in clothing that was outdated by atleast a hundred years, my terror subsided as i looked over my killers shoulder at this man behind him when suddenly my killer apparently felt the presense and turned around, started shaking and literally ran. i ran to the corner, there was no sign of this man that i believe was a ghost to save me. There are too many like events to write about all my supernatural happenings. i should be dead by at least ten times off the top of my head but yet, i live. my question to you and my son is, HOW CAN I NOT BELIEVE THERE IS A GOD???? WHEN GOD HAS PROVEN TO ME THAT THE SUPERNATURAL DOES EXIST. i say to my son, yes, everything you say makes perfect sense, your writing no doubt is capable of changing a lot of people and having a tremendous impact on the world but it will never serve to deconvert me because its not possible to deconvert me because the miraculous and supernatural events of my life are the proof and they are more of a reality to me than this world itself. its not by the church i believe, its not by any reading....its a fact that a supernatural power has worked in my life and in my spirit i have come to know him as GOD. my spirit cries every time i walk into the catholic church because i truly feel his presence there and i recognize this presense as the same that intervened so many times. my son literally trashes me and hates me because i know god in a way that he never has. i refused to argue the point with him, he hates that too! i dont know about you, andrew but i do know about christopher, when he was a christian we could not relate to each other because because any act of charity and generosity i displayed to others, any of my sacrifices of love, money and time. he mistakes this for weakness in me. he seems to have been a very rigid christian that was a very old testament believer and eye for an eye...while i spent my life running around in the new testament practicing the alphabet of love. he definitely sees things in black/white and no shade of gray. if by chance i have been somehow disillusioned or even deceived, i must say, it was still good that i believe in god because had i not believed in god i certainly would not have any desire to live this life nor would i have the strength after all i have encountered. if god should prove a false god , this falsehood saved my life and gave me the courage, strength and desire to carry on and love others in a positive way and i sleep well at night because all is well with my soul. but know this andrew, just as i say to my son christopher, if you are wrong , and you know you can be, if GOD truly does exist and your life truly does have an eternity beyond your understanding and beyond this life, what will be your destiny when in a blink of an eye your life is certain to pass by you and END WITHOUT ANY HOPE....IT JUST ENDS....when it could have just begun. dont close your mind as you and christopher are seeking truth. when i was on my death bed GOD was no more than a passing thought that somehow snagged my brain when i cried out * GODDDDDDDDDDDDDDD IF YOU ARE REAL YOU HAVE GOT TO PROVE IT TO ME NOW BEFORE I DIE!!! I CRIEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD LIKE I NEVER THOUGHT I COULD CRY BUT IN A FLASH, EVERYTHING CHANGED AND I KNEW HE WAS REAL AND EVERYONE KNEW THEY HAD JUST SEEN A MIRACLE WHEN I WENT FROM DEATH TO A MIRACULOUS HEALING.JUST BE CAREFUL NOT TO CHEAT YOURSELF JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE OF HIS EXISTANCE. <br />
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Andrew Garber May 20 at 10:52pm <br />
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Hmm. Less caps. Improvement, I suppose.<br />
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An anecdote and an appeal to pascal. I see why your author son would want you to read his manuscripts. If I were he I would be trying to get you to understand why these arguments not only fail, but fail miserably. I'd be trying to get you to understand that while you may be convinced because you think you ought to be dead, that is no reason for anyone else to be convinced. My guess is your son was trying to educate you in why we non-believers find your arguments both childish and silly.<br />
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But in case that wasn't the topic of his book....<br />
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Your story is intriguing. But it is only a story, and I've no reason to think it is an objective narrative. Even so, why should this anecdote convince me? Are you just trying to explain why you cannot be convinced? There is no need for that. You do that just fine later.<br />
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"if god should prove a false god , this falsehood saved my life and gave me the courage, strength and desire to carry on and love others in a positive way and i sleep well at night because all is well with my soul."<br />
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This is all you needed to say. It seems you don't care if what you believe is true or not. You don't care if you believe in falsehood as long as it is comforting and pleasing to you. That's where we differ. I care if what I believe is true. I want to believe as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible, regardless of whether or not I like it.<br />
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And I see you didn't bother to read the "meaningless life without god" blog. It's okay. I didn't really expect you to read it.<br />
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There is no need for there to be a god for there to be meaning in life. Life is what we make it. If we waste believing in false, comforting lies, it is a pleasant waste, but a waste nonetheless.<br />
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Oh, and Pascal. Seriously? Pascal's Wager? Fine. I used to be catholic. Why are baptists wrong? Why are lutherians wrong? Explain why the methodists are damned to hell. Pascal's wager isn't an argument for truth. It is an argument to be intellectually dishonest because it has the best potential outcome. Again, I care if what I beleive is true, not if it is comforting.<br />
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And what did your son write and how do I get a copy? <br />
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Mary Randall May 20 at 11:18pm Report<br />
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andrew, i am catholic this is true, why the lutherans and baptists are wrong, i am not a part of this flame throwing event of division amongst so called christians. naturally, i do believe the catholic church is the true church from the beginning or i would not be calling myself a catholic . i did venture out at one time just to satisfy myself that i was where i should be so obviously i disagree somehow with their church i suppose but not to the point that i would want to waste my time bashing them like so many of them seem to thrive on. and yes, i was simply explaining why i cannot be deconverted in the earlier message i wrote to you because these supernatural events in my life are the reality and proof to me that God does exist, if not for this i probably could have been deconverted because i see christophers point and presumably yours as well , however, if i am to base my belief on Fact i must continue to believe in a god because i find more proof in believing in him through the solid and proven events of my life than i can with christophers beliefs. what you and christopher believe has not proven anything to me at all but yet, it is profound in a sense and makes sense . you can find christopher on FB as *chris mckinney* or CS mckinney or *reasonable press*. let me know that you did find it and help me make some sense of him please. :) <br />
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Mary Randall May 20 at 11:33pm Report<br />
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...i just know you are going to join that stupid little club of his! <br />
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Mary Randall May 21 at 12:46am Report<br />
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p.s............i am not a closed minded person. you must admit if i were, i would have never tolerated christophers deconversion process for an entire year while writing and sharing with me the details , EVERY detail i read. like i said, i think his plan for me was deconversion and unlike myself, he can not simply live and let live. end result, he no longer likes me...maybe he never did. very vindictive he is and i used to cry but now i am no longer thinking about it much at all. i accept i can not change him or make him love me...just like he can not deconvert me. <br />
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Andrew Garber May 21 at 11:31pm <br />
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C.S. McKinney!! Yes, I'm friends with that dude!! He's part of reasonblogs.org, where I post my blog these days. It appears he also works with Matt Edwards and Jeff Mark, two of my most fav authors.<br />
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I'm going to have to say you are closed minded if you say there is nothing that can change your mind and you don't care if what you believe is true or not. That sounds prety closed minded to me.<br />
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So you can't actually articulate what it is you think the mormons or the methodists or the baptist got wrong? Interesting.<br />
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Live and let live. I think what you mean is, "Stop questioning other's beliefs." No. As I said before, you are free to believe whatever you wish. But if you want to believe in fairy tales, you should be prepared for people to call you out on it. What I and your son and those who publish similar works want to do is challenge your "open-mindedness" with contradictory positions backed with evidence and reason. <br />
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But you say you are open minded and that nothing can change your mind. Does believing in nonsense allow these positions to coincide? Does putting faith in the self-contradictory bible allow you to contradict yourself and not see it? <br />
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Andrew Garber May 21 at 11:51pm <br />
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He says it better than I.<br />
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlXkjrluq_4&feature=youtu.be<br />
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Christianity harms society. Why I mock Christians. <br />
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www.youtube.com <br />
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What kind of nation do you get when 8 our of every 10 people believe in fairy tales as if they were reality? You get a nation that puts more people in prison...<br />
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Mary Randall May 22 at 12:04am Report<br />
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i never said there is nothing that can change my mind, i simply said i have listened to yours and christophers so-called voice of reason and as of yet, nothing has changed my mind because the proof is in the supernatural happenings in my life and not with your logic and reasoning for they have failed to produce anything meaningful or fruitful for me.as far as the mormons , methodists and baptist or any other denomination, i have some knowledge of these but i simply do not care to comment on their beliefs, i already told you i am catholic in denomination and i am satisfied this is the true church where i belong but i am not in the business of wasting my time meddling in others affairs. as i said, i am open minded enough to listen to you as i am a truth seeker but and you fail to produce any proof that my belief is nonsense as you call it and it also seems you and christopher both seem to have all the logic and reason in the world but you just cant seem to harness it and work a miracle with it. as i said, my proof is in the miracles! let me give you some advice if i may, manipulation is no way to win at the game you are trying to win, also, as i tell my son, WHERE ARE YOUR MIRACLES, WHERE IS YOUR PROOF, WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO OFFER ME IF I SHOULD SEE THINGS YOUR WAY????? THUS FAR, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, NADA, ZILCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!...WITH THE EXCEPTION OF CHASING YOUR TAILS IN A CIRCLE AND NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT, AND PERHAPS, IF YOU ARE WRONG YOU HAVE EVERYTHING TO LOSE AND NOTHING TO GAIN. IS THIS YOUR IDEA OF HOPE FOR THE FUTURE? it doesnt surprise me that you and christoper would be friends on FB....you think just alike and with points of interest being the same, was only a matter of time you would have found eachother anyway. <br />
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Mary Randall May 22 at 1:24am Report<br />
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actually andrew, what you and christopher are doing is fulfilling bible prophecy as you hate us without reason and i know where this is all leading. persecution is the nature of your cause and future persecution is safe to assume and you can say you did the world a big favor when you kill us but what will it REALLY profit the world. interior moral value is something that i had long before i thought to become a christian, loving others and helping them while seldom ever thinking of myself is something i have spent most of my life doing, i would have done it even if i did not believe in a god, i simply care about people in general. ultimately, what you are doing is pointless and it robs you of finding true happiness because you are so worried about everyone else that you cant be happy when in a sense you are being held a prisoner to christianity and you dont even believe in it. i say there are a lot of angry ppl that have fallen away from christianity and in some way they try to get even with God because life for them is not what they want it to be. you are very young just like my christopher. christopher seems to resent God because his life did not turn out in the way he wanted it while at the same time claiming to be an athiest, i got news for christopher, life is never the way we want it. we will never be superior in this world no matter how much we try to clean up what we believe is wrong or what irritates us with others. a responsible adult, christian or non christian will take full responsibility for the mistakes one makes and not blame others for what they chose to do or believe in. nobody made christopher believe in GOD or go to church, just like myself, the choice was mine! if christopher believes HE was wrong for believing in God , why not just admit he made a mistake and move forward with something else rather than be miserable and wanting to *get even* or *save the world*, realistically, you cant do either one but you can waste the remainder of your days being controlled by negative behavior or opposition. i truthfully cannot relate to you guys because i do not desire to get even or control anyone or anything. i simply enjoy the very limited time on earth with the simple things in life. <br />
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Andrew Garber May 22 at 10:31pm <br />
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Alight, so is what you are telling me is that it would take a miracle to make you understand that god is imaginary? Seriously? You really don't get why that is ridiculous? You actually think that makes you open minded? How delusional are you?<br />
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Look, there is no proof that god is imaginary. That is not why I believe god is imaginary. I believe god is imaginary because there is no evidence that a god actually exists. You seem to think that miracles are evidence. They are not. Simply because neither you nor I nor anyone else can explain an event, that does not mean the explanation of that event is supernatural. It simply means we lack the proper explanation. Miracles are an appeal to ignorance. In other words, "I can't think of any other explanation for this, so I am going to put a supernatural explanation into it." But there is a problem with this.<br />
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Once you open the possibility of the supernatural, ANY supernatural explanation will do. You could have been saved not by god but but the flying spaghetti monster, or thor, or a unicorn, or zeus. But you don't think that thor saved you. You don't think the flying spaghetti monster intervened with is sacred noodly appendage. You think it was your god that did it.<br />
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My point about your objections to other christian religions is that if you better understood why you are catholic and not mormon, you would be a step closer to understanding why I and your son are atheists. You reject other dogmas. We reject yours. The portions of dispute between catholics and methodists are small, and seemingly inconsequential. But how would you prove one is true and the other false? You can't. Both are equally superstitious and silly. Neither is rooted in fact; both are rooted in faith.<br />
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And again with an appeal to pascal. Is an afterlife required for this life to have meaning and purpose? Why? How do you prove there is an afterlife? Not with another anecdote, I hope. <br />
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You claim you are a truth seeker. I doubt it. Here's a riddle for you: What would a world WITHOUT a god look like? How could you tell the difference? <br />
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Mary Randall May 22 at 11:47pm Report<br />
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andrew, i can already tell, YOU have lost this debate. you keep on trying to tell me what i think while ignoring what i am saying, at a minimum you take the things i do say and blow them entirely out of context. as i said earlier, manipulation seems to be a way for you to both ignore me and try to kick me on the defense. for starters, i never said it would take a miracle for me to believe the way you believe, i said my belief has given me miracles ( for lack of a better word) while your belief has given me nothing at all, do you understand the difference? as far as your statement, * i believe God is imaginary because no evidence exist* or because there is no explanation of that event is supernatural* for those that believe no explanation is necessary, for those that do not no explanation is possible. where is your proof that GOD is a fairy tale? other than the fact you think scripture is contradictory to truth, where is your proof? i would think thats a very weak case at a minimum, especially when you consider that my supernatural experiences or miracles delivered a desired result, what about your belief? what has it given you ? can you prove that GOD does not exist? prove it to me..........just like christopher you cant prove anything at all. i am open minded so PROVE IT TO ME! and dont dance around everything i say, just PROVE IT because if you fail to prove it, at a minimum its a toos up right? and you are no closer to proving G od does not exist than i can prove he does! i think you and christopher both obviously did not get the *miracles* and *proof* you were looking for when you did profess to be a christian so just like some angry little boys you want to stomp your feet and scream out because you did not get your way, perhaps this is why you did not get your way. if you are anything like christopher you were way too rigid and selfish to get your way anyway! neither one of you obviously did not gain what i did or you would not be denying his existence or complaining about him. see if THIS WORLD and all of its empty promises get you anything, i can tell you for sure you wont get much and if you keep up with the attitude and obsessions, you will simply not have time to get what little bit it did have to offer. earlier you said * my point about objections to other religions*???? i never said i did object, you keep on TRYING TO MAKE ME SAY THIS WHEN IN FACT I HAVE NOT. i believe what i did say was , * i am not interested in bashing other religions * and obviously we differ, is that not what i said? talk about fairy tales, you are full of them! and yes i am no stranger to other religions so dont try to sell me short on that end either. even if there was any truth to what you say whats your point? so what, you were disappointed as a christian and no longer choose to believe, i can except that, why cant you? wasting all this time trying to prove something does not exist when not only do you not have the answers, you dont have the proof of your own theories! you fail to deliver on all counts!i am quite content with my life the way it is and it works for me. what works for you, have you found anything? until you do you are defeated ! <br />
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Andrew Garber May 23 at 6:16am <br />
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I didn't realize this was a debate. Very well. Debate hat on.<br />
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Why don't you believe in the flying spaghetti monster? You can't prove the flying spaghetti monster does not exist, therefore, the possibility it does exist and the possibility it does not must be on equal ground.<br />
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Bullshit. Chimreas are imaginary. There is no need to prove these mythical creatures are not real. If i told you I have a pet dragon, would you think there is a 50/50 chance I was telling the truth?<br />
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Tell me why your god is more likely than a dragon. <br />
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Since you'd prefer a debate, I'll keep these short so you can turn your attention to the question. <br />
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Mary Randall May 23 at 8:00am Report<br />
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ok, just as soon as you turn you attention to some of my questions maybe we can get this *debate* off and running. may we start with the last message i sent you because of all the things i wrote, you fail to respond to anything other than you apparently desired a debate, so you jumped right on me! which is the case with all the previous message i sent to you, very one-sided but whats worse, you cant even back up your own theory. your turn, add some solid substance please! <br />
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Andrew Garber May 23 at 7:50pm <br />
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That WAS me addressing your points. <br />
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You said, " i am open minded so PROVE IT TO ME! and dont dance around everything i say, just PROVE IT because if you fail to prove it, at a minimum its a toss up right?"<br />
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Now before, I had said, "I believe god is imaginary because there is no evidence that a god actually exists. You seem to think that miracles are evidence. You could have been saved not by god but but the flying spaghetti monster, or thor, or a unicorn, or zeus. But you don't think that thor saved you. You don't think the flying spaghetti monster intervened with is sacred noodly appendage. You think it was your god that did it."<br />
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Which brings me to, "Why don't you believe in the flying spaghetti monster? You can't prove the flying spaghetti monster does not exist, therefore, the possibility it does exist and the possibility it does not must be on equal ground."<br />
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I ask this question, because I see I cannot get you to describe why you disagree with other religions. You say this is because you don't want to "bash" them, but I think it is because you don't really have a good idea of why you are catholic and not baptist. I think you simply dodge the question, because you don't really know what it is that differs between all the christian denominations. I'd accept that answer, but you prefer to hide behind the veil of not "bashing people". <br />
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So I turn the attention to things you MUST NOT believe in, because NO ONE believes them. The FSM line of questions is really an extension of my previous line, but I'm hoping for a real answer this time.<br />
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But you're right. I should answer the question myself. That is fair. However, I'm going to turn it around for me. I assert there is no god, so to be fair, I should answer this: "What would a world WITH a god look like? How could we tell the difference?" Here goes.<br />
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I think the world would be fundamentally different. All that we know about the natural world and the way things work would be turned on its head. In a world where god exists, people could CAUSE miracles. By miracles, I mean the suspension of the natural laws as we currently know them. People could pray away pain, suffering, poverty, death and taxes. Those who prayed to the proper deity could easily win favor and perform testable, reproducible, tangible effects. In effect, science would become magic, and magic would become science. We'd study at Hogwart's instead of universities. Faith, unfortunately, would also be eradicated. There would be abundant and overwhelming evidence that god existed, his presence known, and the effects of prayer measured. <br />
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Of course, nothing fails like prayer in the real world, and THAT is how we can tell the difference.<br />
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Your turn. <br />
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I never heard from her again.Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5982449234612952793.post-4743180617537456022011-06-08T23:11:00.000-04:002011-06-08T23:11:59.999-04:00The Whipping BoyLet’s say that you get a DUI. You go to court and either plead guilty because you are guilty, or you are found guilty because you are guilty. Let’s imagine you are fined $300.00 and one month probation. I’m making this punishment up. I’ve never had a DUI.<br />
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Suppose you didn’t have $300.00 lying around. Suppose you’d spent all you money on alcohol, and that’s why you got the DUI. Now you have to pay this fine, so a friend/buddy/relative pays the fine for you.<br />
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Would you have to pay your buddy back? What if you never agreed to pay your buddy back? What if there was no contract between you and your buddy that said you needed to repay your friend? Could your friend sue you and get a judgment?<br />
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Oh yeah. Don’t you watch Judge Judy? This happens all the time. But how can this be? There was no contract. You could have thought the money was a gift and you had no obligation to pay it back. Without a “meeting of the minds”, there can be no contract.<br />
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The answer is simple. The fines were part of your punishment for the DUI. You cannot impose or visit that punishment on someone else. The law does not allow you to do that. You have to have your punishment. If jail time was involved, you could not pay someone to do your time for you. Our laws recognize that is unethical.<br />
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Back in the day, there was such a person as a “whipping boy”. This would be a person upon whom someone else’s punishment would be imposed. You committed a crime; the whipping boy paid for it. Today we all recognize this is an unethical practice, and it is outlawed.<br />
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Why does god demand a whipping boy? God’s justice is so great, and yet he uses a barbaric, unethical and ugly justice system. Not only is there one punishment for all crime, but you cannot pay for the crime yourself. You must use Jesus as your whipping boy. <br />
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It seems obvious that this is a story, told by people with a primitive view of justice and ethics. If we can evolve past these barbaric rituals in our civic lives, why do we still cling to them in religion? Our justice system may be flawed, but God’s is no better. We have to improve upon our secular system, not inundate it with archaic biblical barbarism. Human morality may be flawed, but it is what we have. We have a responsibility to improve upon it. God isn’t here; we are.Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00254092138590309074noreply@blogger.com0