I miss hell

The other day I was talking with my wife about things I missed about belief.  I was talking about the sense of belonging and community that can be lacking in the atheist community.  Sure there’s facebook and such, but there is no real substitute for actual personal interaction.  My wife brilliantly stunned me by saying, “I miss hell.” 

What she meant was that when she was a believer, it gave her great comfort to “know” that Hitler and other mass murderers were being tormented in hell.  She liked the idea that every day at noon, Hitler would get a pineapple shoved into his bottom.  It gave her comfort and pleasure to think there was some great justice done to those who had caused so much death and suffering.  Now, she said, she was saddened by the thought the fate of Hitler would one day be shared by her: she would simply die.

I’ve said before that I think one of the reasons people stay in religious circles, even if they have doubts, is because they get so much comfort from their beliefs.  I just never thought hell was one of those comforting thoughts.  But I see it now.  And while I, too, dislike the idea that I will one day be on par with the murderers of the past, I find this can be turned around a bit.

Perhaps we must be motivated even more to make things right now, while we are alive.  Perhaps we must become active and involved at some level to do good and be good without god.  Perhaps this is one more reason to fight against the encroachment of superstition and religious nonsense into secular lives.  God isn’t here; we are.  And when we are dead, it is over.

It takes more faith to be a WHAT?!

Back when I was a believer, this whole "it takes more faith to be an atheist" thing held me for a while. It seemed to be an argument against losing faith. That is, if I leave my faith, I will be required to employ even more faith, and that is what I am leaving. So why leave? But this doesn't hold faith itself in high regard, does it? The idea now is to have the least amount of faith possible, and that is to be a believer.


But this net is so flimsy; I really don't know how it held me for so long. Faith is supposed to be a virtue, and if I believe that faith IS a virtue, AND I believe that it takes more faith to be an atheist, why not be an atheist? Now the atheist has the more virtuous viewpoint? How did that happen?

Is this the believer admitting that faith is not virtuous? Why would you want to show the opposing side that they possess more of the virtue you hold in such high regard and that they hold in such low regard? It’s not like you see a bunch of atheists telling believers that it takes more gods to not believe in gods than it takes to believe in gods. What? That last statement makes just as much sense as the title of this blog. Stop re-reading it. It does. Have some faith. Sheesh.

Then you realize that it requires NO faith to not believe in imaginary deities, fairies, unicorns, dragons, chimeras, etc. Do you believe in pixies? Does that require faith? So really, losing faith really does mean losing faith. That is, after all, why they call it losing faith. It takes LESS faith to be an atheist. Duh.

But that misses this point:

If you are a believer, and you think faith is virtuous, and you think atheists have more faith, why do you chose not to have as much faith as you think the atheist does? Why are you in such a hurry to lose the faith competition?

It’s okay to lose your faith. It’s not virtuous. It’s delusion. Trust me.

Giving up the god ghost


I often hear people say things like, “It’s in god’s hands now, “ or, “I’ve given it over to god,” or “Jesus is my co-pilot.” I think this is code for giving up.

People say these things when times are tough. Let’s face it; times can indeed be tough. We all go through rough patches, and some are rougher than others. In times like this, we can either look for help, or look to superstition. I’m not denying that things get hard. I’m saying that we make things worse when we ignore the problem and not take action. Rarely is inaction the solution. We need to do something, and I don’t mean pray. Nothing fails like prayer.

When things are rough, we have to be able to rely on what really helps. Friends, family, and the people we know we can ask for help. They may not actually be able to help, but at least the people are real and they will try. When we appeal to the imaginary to help us, we get nothing.

While people may not be very helpful, superstition can at least make you feel better. But is it really better? To say that the religious person is happier than the atheist is no better than saying the drunkard is happier than the sober person.

It angers me when I hear people say that they’ve given it over to god. That really means that have given up. I remember back in the day when I played sports. My coaches always told me that it’s not if you win or lose, it’s how you play the game. The only real defeat comes when you give up or when you forfeit the game. But that is exactly what religion seems to encourage us to do when things are at the worst. While religion claims to have all the answers to all life’s questions, it seems when push comes to shove, the only solution it offers is no solution at all. “Give it over to god” is a cop-out. A lame attempt to solve a problem by ignoring it.

I was recently asked what motivates me. I answered that god isn’t here; we are.

Answers in Atheism?

If there is a valid critique of atheism, it should be that there are no answers in atheism, save one. The only answer in atheism is to this question, “Do you believe in gods or deities?” The answer is, “No!”



Religion, by contrast, offers all the answers you could ever imagine, and a few you can’t. But there’s a problem. While the questions may be consistent, the answers certainly are not. Hence, we have thousands of different Christian denominations alone. Every one seeks to answer the same questions, with varying responses. People go “church-shopping”, looking for the denomination or church that is closest to what they already think is true. But is that REALLY a path to truth?



This is, after all, a group that prides itself on being right. But with no evidence to back up a single claim, and with apologetics suggesting that without evidence all things are equally probable, why not look to the buffet of religions to find the one that suits you? As long as they talk about jesus, they must be alright, right? At least they have jesus.



It seems to me that most people cannot articulate why they are one kind of believer and not another. When they can, it is almost always an inheritance. They believe as their parents did. But again, for a group so focused on having the “T”ruth, isn’t this a really bad way to find it?



Atheism may not have answers, but I think that is a good thing. It’s obvious the answers are not in religion. Once we can get past the nonsense of “the-bible-said-it-so-I-believe-it-and-that’s-that” foolishness, we can start having a real discussion about what the answers might be. But we can’t do that with god in the way. We must find the answers. God isn’t here; we are.

A conversation I had with a believer through Facebook messaging.

Between You and Mary Randall



Mary Randall May 19 at 7:42pm Report

why is it soooooooooooooooooooooo hard for those that do not believe in GOD to accept those that do, why is it sooooo hard for you not to live and let live, finally, why is it soooooooo necessary for those that do not believe in God to waste soooooooomuch of their valuable time trying to DISPROVE WHAT THE CHRISTIANS CAN NOT PROVE!!!!! sheesh, you people have an obsession over a belief that you do not even believe in ...sad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Andrew Garber May 19 at 8:34pm

You are, of course, free to believe whatever nonsense you wish. But it is my experience that our beliefs inform the positions we take socially and politically. For this reason, people who hold superstitious nonsense as truth should be held accountable for holding such crap as truth. They should pay the price of thinking fairy tales are true, the way we make people who think the world will end in two days pay for their ridiculous beliefs.



I assume you took a look at the most recent blog post I made. That was done a couple of years ago. I admit it was a bit time consuming to both read and deconstruct the original author's crap, but I thought it a good use of time as he asserted it would be evidence I had not considered for the existence of god. He was so wrong I had to respond.



Not unlike this response here.



I find it sad that people hold as true beliefs not rooted in evidence. I find it sad that people think that these ideas should be treated equally as those what ARE backed by evidence. I think it is sad that people do not provide any evidence for their claims, but instead wish I would stop hurting their precious feelings. If you don't want your rediculous beliefs ridiculed, don't hold such stupid beliefs.



Mary Randall May 19 at 9:21pm Report

THE FACT STILL REMAINS; YOU DO NOT PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS. YOUR ARGUMENT APPEARS TO BE YOU DO NOT FIND CHRISTIANITY *SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE* AND CHRISTIANS SHOULD SOMEHOW BE ACCOUNTABLE TO YOU. I TRUTHFULLY DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU BELIEVE BECAUSE IN MY CHRISTIAN BELIEF, YOU CAN SIMPLY GO TO HELL OF YOUR OWN ACCORD IF YOU LIKE BUT IN MY SECULAR BELIEF, I THINK YOU ARE AT A REAL DISADVANTAGE BY NOT BELIEVING BECAUSE THERE IS NO HOPE FOR YOU BEYOND THIS LIFE AND WITHIN THIS LIFE YOU ARE WASTING YOUR PRECIOUS AND LIMITED TIME WITHOUT ANY REAL CAUSE ON EARTH OTHER THAN A *VOID* OF BELIEF IN A SUPERSTITION, WHAT KIND OF LIFE IS THAT?



Mary Randall May 19 at 9:29pm Report

HONESTLY ANDREW, MY SON IS JUST LIKE YOU! HE HAS OVER 5000 PPL ON FACEBOOK AND IS AN AUTHOR OF NON BELIEF. BRILLIANT AUTHOR BUT SINCE HE DID FALL AWAY FROM CHRISTIANITY, HE IS ONE NASTY PERSON AND OTHER THAN BEING HATRED AND ANGER DRIVEN IT APPEARS HE HAS NO REAL ENJOYMENT OR CAUSE IN LIFE, HE CERTAINLY HAS NO ANSWERS FOR HOW TO FIND HAPPINESS AND CONTENTMENT IN LIFE...ONLY SOME SICK OBSESSION TO CONVINCE THE WORLD GOD DOES NOT EXIST AND AS I TOLD HIM, HE SIMPLY CAN NOT DO THAT SO, GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Andrew Garber May 19 at 10:01pm

I see we've moved to all caps. Quaint. And I disagree.



I have the advantage of being able to decipher what is real. Believers have the disadvantage of accepting some things as true on faith, not fact. When you do this, you compromise your ability to tell fact from fiction.



You should read my blog, "A meaningless life without god". It's the first one I loaded at andrewtheatheist.reasonblogs.org. Life has more meaning without the supernatural, not with it.



Believers are not accountable to me. I simply think that if we consider people who think bigfoot is real are nuts, we chould also consider people who think god is real are nuts. Go ahead and be a nut. Just be aware we think you are a nut.



I need convince no one that god does not exist. Atheism is not a path to happiness or contentment. It is only the answer to the question, "Do you believe in god(s)?"



My apostasy, as I gather your son's, was a difficult time in my life. I blog so that others may find help in their journey away from myth and dogma. That inspires me.



It is sad that you think it is anger and hatred drives us. Rather, it is the opportunity to show you, and others who think like you, that it is not necessary to believe to be good.



Mary Randall May 20 at 1:04am Report

Ok, just like you, my son had a very difficult time as he journeyed away from christianity. Consider this, I gave birth to him and i can see that it has done him no good to leave christianity but rather made him a very unlikable person, also a very manipulative one as well. Religious or non religious these personality traits are not a good thing to have. in his own words, * i will either prove this god right or i will rip him to shreds*. i never could quite understand this because to me, if someone or something is not believed to exist, why waste your time on *nothing*. i do not agree with christophers belief or non belief but at the same time i can and did appreciate and respect his talent as an author. nobody can take that from him as he is nothing short of brilliant in writing . i actually agreed to not only be supportive of him but to financially support him while he wrote and published his first book. Unfortunately as months went by and after every chapter he was very demanding that i read his material as he wrote. non-judgmental i did so but i started getting the vibe that my son was definitely hoping to deconvert me in the process. our relationship has ended for a time because as i told him, it’s not because i am catholic that you will never succeed in my deconversion, it’s not because i read my bible from cover to cover that i choose to believe, its not because someone drilled this belief deep within my resources that i will not be swayed, its because when i was 4 years old i inhaled water 2 and one half times while being trapped in a pond and some supernatural being pulled me out, laid me on the bank, sucked the water thru my nostrils...and disappeared before my eyes with a gentle voice telling me to go home to my mom she was worrying about me. also, i believe in GOD because he miraculously intervened several times in my life and while on my death bed, i received a supernatural healing and lived when i should have died, also i was a woman that worked post katrina in new orleans, was beat to death but did not die, was later poisoned as i felt the life draining out of me, fainted with my last breath, as any dying human would die, i died but as my spirit was passing....i came back to my body and lived, later was forcefully taken to a cemetery in new orleans where all vaults are above ground, a man was attempting to bury me alive inside and enclose me when out of the blue, in totally abandoned city a man appeared, dressed in clothing that was outdated by atleast a hundred years, my terror subsided as i looked over my killers shoulder at this man behind him when suddenly my killer apparently felt the presense and turned around, started shaking and literally ran. i ran to the corner, there was no sign of this man that i believe was a ghost to save me. There are too many like events to write about all my supernatural happenings. i should be dead by at least ten times off the top of my head but yet, i live. my question to you and my son is, HOW CAN I NOT BELIEVE THERE IS A GOD???? WHEN GOD HAS PROVEN TO ME THAT THE SUPERNATURAL DOES EXIST. i say to my son, yes, everything you say makes perfect sense, your writing no doubt is capable of changing a lot of people and having a tremendous impact on the world but it will never serve to deconvert me because its not possible to deconvert me because the miraculous and supernatural events of my life are the proof and they are more of a reality to me than this world itself. its not by the church i believe, its not by any reading....its a fact that a supernatural power has worked in my life and in my spirit i have come to know him as GOD. my spirit cries every time i walk into the catholic church because i truly feel his presence there and i recognize this presense as the same that intervened so many times. my son literally trashes me and hates me because i know god in a way that he never has. i refused to argue the point with him, he hates that too! i dont know about you, andrew but i do know about christopher, when he was a christian we could not relate to each other because because any act of charity and generosity i displayed to others, any of my sacrifices of love, money and time. he mistakes this for weakness in me. he seems to have been a very rigid christian that was a very old testament believer and eye for an eye...while i spent my life running around in the new testament practicing the alphabet of love. he definitely sees things in black/white and no shade of gray. if by chance i have been somehow disillusioned or even deceived, i must say, it was still good that i believe in god because had i not believed in god i certainly would not have any desire to live this life nor would i have the strength after all i have encountered. if god should prove a false god , this falsehood saved my life and gave me the courage, strength and desire to carry on and love others in a positive way and i sleep well at night because all is well with my soul. but know this andrew, just as i say to my son christopher, if you are wrong , and you know you can be, if GOD truly does exist and your life truly does have an eternity beyond your understanding and beyond this life, what will be your destiny when in a blink of an eye your life is certain to pass by you and END WITHOUT ANY HOPE....IT JUST ENDS....when it could have just begun. dont close your mind as you and christopher are seeking truth. when i was on my death bed GOD was no more than a passing thought that somehow snagged my brain when i cried out * GODDDDDDDDDDDDDDD IF YOU ARE REAL YOU HAVE GOT TO PROVE IT TO ME NOW BEFORE I DIE!!! I CRIEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD LIKE I NEVER THOUGHT I COULD CRY BUT IN A FLASH, EVERYTHING CHANGED AND I KNEW HE WAS REAL AND EVERYONE KNEW THEY HAD JUST SEEN A MIRACLE WHEN I WENT FROM DEATH TO A MIRACULOUS HEALING.JUST BE CAREFUL NOT TO CHEAT YOURSELF JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE OF HIS EXISTANCE.



Andrew Garber May 20 at 10:52pm

Hmm. Less caps. Improvement, I suppose.



An anecdote and an appeal to pascal. I see why your author son would want you to read his manuscripts. If I were he I would be trying to get you to understand why these arguments not only fail, but fail miserably. I'd be trying to get you to understand that while you may be convinced because you think you ought to be dead, that is no reason for anyone else to be convinced. My guess is your son was trying to educate you in why we non-believers find your arguments both childish and silly.



But in case that wasn't the topic of his book....



Your story is intriguing. But it is only a story, and I've no reason to think it is an objective narrative. Even so, why should this anecdote convince me? Are you just trying to explain why you cannot be convinced? There is no need for that. You do that just fine later.



"if god should prove a false god , this falsehood saved my life and gave me the courage, strength and desire to carry on and love others in a positive way and i sleep well at night because all is well with my soul."



This is all you needed to say. It seems you don't care if what you believe is true or not. You don't care if you believe in falsehood as long as it is comforting and pleasing to you. That's where we differ. I care if what I believe is true. I want to believe as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible, regardless of whether or not I like it.



And I see you didn't bother to read the "meaningless life without god" blog. It's okay. I didn't really expect you to read it.



There is no need for there to be a god for there to be meaning in life. Life is what we make it. If we waste believing in false, comforting lies, it is a pleasant waste, but a waste nonetheless.



Oh, and Pascal. Seriously? Pascal's Wager? Fine. I used to be catholic. Why are baptists wrong? Why are lutherians wrong? Explain why the methodists are damned to hell. Pascal's wager isn't an argument for truth. It is an argument to be intellectually dishonest because it has the best potential outcome. Again, I care if what I beleive is true, not if it is comforting.



And what did your son write and how do I get a copy?



Mary Randall May 20 at 11:18pm Report

andrew, i am catholic this is true, why the lutherans and baptists are wrong, i am not a part of this flame throwing event of division amongst so called christians. naturally, i do believe the catholic church is the true church from the beginning or i would not be calling myself a catholic . i did venture out at one time just to satisfy myself that i was where i should be so obviously i disagree somehow with their church i suppose but not to the point that i would want to waste my time bashing them like so many of them seem to thrive on. and yes, i was simply explaining why i cannot be deconverted in the earlier message i wrote to you because these supernatural events in my life are the reality and proof to me that God does exist, if not for this i probably could have been deconverted because i see christophers point and presumably yours as well , however, if i am to base my belief on Fact i must continue to believe in a god because i find more proof in believing in him through the solid and proven events of my life than i can with christophers beliefs. what you and christopher believe has not proven anything to me at all but yet, it is profound in a sense and makes sense . you can find christopher on FB as *chris mckinney* or CS mckinney or *reasonable press*. let me know that you did find it and help me make some sense of him please. :)



Mary Randall May 20 at 11:33pm Report

...i just know you are going to join that stupid little club of his!



Mary Randall May 21 at 12:46am Report

p.s............i am not a closed minded person. you must admit if i were, i would have never tolerated christophers deconversion process for an entire year while writing and sharing with me the details , EVERY detail i read. like i said, i think his plan for me was deconversion and unlike myself, he can not simply live and let live. end result, he no longer likes me...maybe he never did. very vindictive he is and i used to cry but now i am no longer thinking about it much at all. i accept i can not change him or make him love me...just like he can not deconvert me.



Andrew Garber May 21 at 11:31pm

C.S. McKinney!! Yes, I'm friends with that dude!! He's part of reasonblogs.org, where I post my blog these days. It appears he also works with Matt Edwards and Jeff Mark, two of my most fav authors.



I'm going to have to say you are closed minded if you say there is nothing that can change your mind and you don't care if what you believe is true or not. That sounds prety closed minded to me.



So you can't actually articulate what it is you think the mormons or the methodists or the baptist got wrong? Interesting.



Live and let live. I think what you mean is, "Stop questioning other's beliefs." No. As I said before, you are free to believe whatever you wish. But if you want to believe in fairy tales, you should be prepared for people to call you out on it. What I and your son and those who publish similar works want to do is challenge your "open-mindedness" with contradictory positions backed with evidence and reason.



But you say you are open minded and that nothing can change your mind. Does believing in nonsense allow these positions to coincide? Does putting faith in the self-contradictory bible allow you to contradict yourself and not see it?



Andrew Garber May 21 at 11:51pm

He says it better than I.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlXkjrluq_4&feature=youtu.be



Christianity harms society. Why I mock Christians.

www.youtube.com

What kind of nation do you get when 8 our of every 10 people believe in fairy tales as if they were reality? You get a nation that puts more people in prison...

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Mary Randall May 22 at 12:04am Report

i never said there is nothing that can change my mind, i simply said i have listened to yours and christophers so-called voice of reason and as of yet, nothing has changed my mind because the proof is in the supernatural happenings in my life and not with your logic and reasoning for they have failed to produce anything meaningful or fruitful for me.as far as the mormons , methodists and baptist or any other denomination, i have some knowledge of these but i simply do not care to comment on their beliefs, i already told you i am catholic in denomination and i am satisfied this is the true church where i belong but i am not in the business of wasting my time meddling in others affairs. as i said, i am open minded enough to listen to you as i am a truth seeker but and you fail to produce any proof that my belief is nonsense as you call it and it also seems you and christopher both seem to have all the logic and reason in the world but you just cant seem to harness it and work a miracle with it. as i said, my proof is in the miracles! let me give you some advice if i may, manipulation is no way to win at the game you are trying to win, also, as i tell my son, WHERE ARE YOUR MIRACLES, WHERE IS YOUR PROOF, WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO OFFER ME IF I SHOULD SEE THINGS YOUR WAY????? THUS FAR, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, NADA, ZILCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!...WITH THE EXCEPTION OF CHASING YOUR TAILS IN A CIRCLE AND NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT, AND PERHAPS, IF YOU ARE WRONG YOU HAVE EVERYTHING TO LOSE AND NOTHING TO GAIN. IS THIS YOUR IDEA OF HOPE FOR THE FUTURE? it doesnt surprise me that you and christoper would be friends on FB....you think just alike and with points of interest being the same, was only a matter of time you would have found eachother anyway.



Mary Randall May 22 at 1:24am Report

actually andrew, what you and christopher are doing is fulfilling bible prophecy as you hate us without reason and i know where this is all leading. persecution is the nature of your cause and future persecution is safe to assume and you can say you did the world a big favor when you kill us but what will it REALLY profit the world. interior moral value is something that i had long before i thought to become a christian, loving others and helping them while seldom ever thinking of myself is something i have spent most of my life doing, i would have done it even if i did not believe in a god, i simply care about people in general. ultimately, what you are doing is pointless and it robs you of finding true happiness because you are so worried about everyone else that you cant be happy when in a sense you are being held a prisoner to christianity and you dont even believe in it. i say there are a lot of angry ppl that have fallen away from christianity and in some way they try to get even with God because life for them is not what they want it to be. you are very young just like my christopher. christopher seems to resent God because his life did not turn out in the way he wanted it while at the same time claiming to be an athiest, i got news for christopher, life is never the way we want it. we will never be superior in this world no matter how much we try to clean up what we believe is wrong or what irritates us with others. a responsible adult, christian or non christian will take full responsibility for the mistakes one makes and not blame others for what they chose to do or believe in. nobody made christopher believe in GOD or go to church, just like myself, the choice was mine! if christopher believes HE was wrong for believing in God , why not just admit he made a mistake and move forward with something else rather than be miserable and wanting to *get even* or *save the world*, realistically, you cant do either one but you can waste the remainder of your days being controlled by negative behavior or opposition. i truthfully cannot relate to you guys because i do not desire to get even or control anyone or anything. i simply enjoy the very limited time on earth with the simple things in life.



Andrew Garber May 22 at 10:31pm

Alight, so is what you are telling me is that it would take a miracle to make you understand that god is imaginary? Seriously? You really don't get why that is ridiculous? You actually think that makes you open minded? How delusional are you?



Look, there is no proof that god is imaginary. That is not why I believe god is imaginary. I believe god is imaginary because there is no evidence that a god actually exists. You seem to think that miracles are evidence. They are not. Simply because neither you nor I nor anyone else can explain an event, that does not mean the explanation of that event is supernatural. It simply means we lack the proper explanation. Miracles are an appeal to ignorance. In other words, "I can't think of any other explanation for this, so I am going to put a supernatural explanation into it." But there is a problem with this.



Once you open the possibility of the supernatural, ANY supernatural explanation will do. You could have been saved not by god but but the flying spaghetti monster, or thor, or a unicorn, or zeus. But you don't think that thor saved you. You don't think the flying spaghetti monster intervened with is sacred noodly appendage. You think it was your god that did it.



My point about your objections to other christian religions is that if you better understood why you are catholic and not mormon, you would be a step closer to understanding why I and your son are atheists. You reject other dogmas. We reject yours. The portions of dispute between catholics and methodists are small, and seemingly inconsequential. But how would you prove one is true and the other false? You can't. Both are equally superstitious and silly. Neither is rooted in fact; both are rooted in faith.



And again with an appeal to pascal. Is an afterlife required for this life to have meaning and purpose? Why? How do you prove there is an afterlife? Not with another anecdote, I hope.



You claim you are a truth seeker. I doubt it. Here's a riddle for you: What would a world WITHOUT a god look like? How could you tell the difference?



Mary Randall May 22 at 11:47pm Report

andrew, i can already tell, YOU have lost this debate. you keep on trying to tell me what i think while ignoring what i am saying, at a minimum you take the things i do say and blow them entirely out of context. as i said earlier, manipulation seems to be a way for you to both ignore me and try to kick me on the defense. for starters, i never said it would take a miracle for me to believe the way you believe, i said my belief has given me miracles ( for lack of a better word) while your belief has given me nothing at all, do you understand the difference? as far as your statement, * i believe God is imaginary because no evidence exist* or because there is no explanation of that event is supernatural* for those that believe no explanation is necessary, for those that do not no explanation is possible. where is your proof that GOD is a fairy tale? other than the fact you think scripture is contradictory to truth, where is your proof? i would think thats a very weak case at a minimum, especially when you consider that my supernatural experiences or miracles delivered a desired result, what about your belief? what has it given you ? can you prove that GOD does not exist? prove it to me..........just like christopher you cant prove anything at all. i am open minded so PROVE IT TO ME! and dont dance around everything i say, just PROVE IT because if you fail to prove it, at a minimum its a toos up right? and you are no closer to proving G od does not exist than i can prove he does! i think you and christopher both obviously did not get the *miracles* and *proof* you were looking for when you did profess to be a christian so just like some angry little boys you want to stomp your feet and scream out because you did not get your way, perhaps this is why you did not get your way. if you are anything like christopher you were way too rigid and selfish to get your way anyway! neither one of you obviously did not gain what i did or you would not be denying his existence or complaining about him. see if THIS WORLD and all of its empty promises get you anything, i can tell you for sure you wont get much and if you keep up with the attitude and obsessions, you will simply not have time to get what little bit it did have to offer. earlier you said * my point about objections to other religions*???? i never said i did object, you keep on TRYING TO MAKE ME SAY THIS WHEN IN FACT I HAVE NOT. i believe what i did say was , * i am not interested in bashing other religions * and obviously we differ, is that not what i said? talk about fairy tales, you are full of them! and yes i am no stranger to other religions so dont try to sell me short on that end either. even if there was any truth to what you say whats your point? so what, you were disappointed as a christian and no longer choose to believe, i can except that, why cant you? wasting all this time trying to prove something does not exist when not only do you not have the answers, you dont have the proof of your own theories! you fail to deliver on all counts!i am quite content with my life the way it is and it works for me. what works for you, have you found anything? until you do you are defeated !



Andrew Garber May 23 at 6:16am

I didn't realize this was a debate. Very well. Debate hat on.



Why don't you believe in the flying spaghetti monster? You can't prove the flying spaghetti monster does not exist, therefore, the possibility it does exist and the possibility it does not must be on equal ground.



Bullshit. Chimreas are imaginary. There is no need to prove these mythical creatures are not real. If i told you I have a pet dragon, would you think there is a 50/50 chance I was telling the truth?



Tell me why your god is more likely than a dragon.



Since you'd prefer a debate, I'll keep these short so you can turn your attention to the question.



Mary Randall May 23 at 8:00am Report

ok, just as soon as you turn you attention to some of my questions maybe we can get this *debate* off and running. may we start with the last message i sent you because of all the things i wrote, you fail to respond to anything other than you apparently desired a debate, so you jumped right on me! which is the case with all the previous message i sent to you, very one-sided but whats worse, you cant even back up your own theory. your turn, add some solid substance please!



Andrew Garber May 23 at 7:50pm

That WAS me addressing your points.



You said, " i am open minded so PROVE IT TO ME! and dont dance around everything i say, just PROVE IT because if you fail to prove it, at a minimum its a toss up right?"



Now before, I had said, "I believe god is imaginary because there is no evidence that a god actually exists. You seem to think that miracles are evidence. You could have been saved not by god but but the flying spaghetti monster, or thor, or a unicorn, or zeus. But you don't think that thor saved you. You don't think the flying spaghetti monster intervened with is sacred noodly appendage. You think it was your god that did it."



Which brings me to, "Why don't you believe in the flying spaghetti monster? You can't prove the flying spaghetti monster does not exist, therefore, the possibility it does exist and the possibility it does not must be on equal ground."



I ask this question, because I see I cannot get you to describe why you disagree with other religions. You say this is because you don't want to "bash" them, but I think it is because you don't really have a good idea of why you are catholic and not baptist. I think you simply dodge the question, because you don't really know what it is that differs between all the christian denominations. I'd accept that answer, but you prefer to hide behind the veil of not "bashing people".



So I turn the attention to things you MUST NOT believe in, because NO ONE believes them. The FSM line of questions is really an extension of my previous line, but I'm hoping for a real answer this time.



But you're right. I should answer the question myself. That is fair. However, I'm going to turn it around for me. I assert there is no god, so to be fair, I should answer this: "What would a world WITH a god look like? How could we tell the difference?" Here goes.



I think the world would be fundamentally different. All that we know about the natural world and the way things work would be turned on its head. In a world where god exists, people could CAUSE miracles. By miracles, I mean the suspension of the natural laws as we currently know them. People could pray away pain, suffering, poverty, death and taxes. Those who prayed to the proper deity could easily win favor and perform testable, reproducible, tangible effects. In effect, science would become magic, and magic would become science. We'd study at Hogwart's instead of universities. Faith, unfortunately, would also be eradicated. There would be abundant and overwhelming evidence that god existed, his presence known, and the effects of prayer measured.



Of course, nothing fails like prayer in the real world, and THAT is how we can tell the difference.



Your turn.





I never heard from her again.